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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » You are getting sleepy...very sleepy... » » Does Hypnotism Prove The Existence Of Reincarnation? (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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jessewjoseph
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On 2009-06-18 12:22, mindpunisher wrote:
I think its ALL relative.


So we shouldn't practice regression on family members then?
bobser
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Why would I NOT regress a family member? Would that cause any MORE harm than regressing a client off the street?
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
jessewjoseph
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Heh, "client off the street" made me laugh. Took me back to my days of doing street therapy...
mindpunisher
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On 2009-06-18 19:00, bobser wrote:
Why would I NOT regress a family member? Would that cause any MORE harm than regressing a client off the street?


If you were to regress your family any furher they would be climbing trees.
Tommy_McRock
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My two pence: hypnosis doesn't prove re-incarnation/past lives.

My reasons being, having moved in various circles I have discovered that Cleopatra and Marie Antoinette must have had multiple personalities from the number of women I know who have been regressed to to relive them. I have also encountered more than one of Robin Hoods Merry men if you'd beleive that, (and he's practically fiction!) and General Wolfe (a tragic Hero of British Imperialism). These are the highlights... I have met tudor and viking peasants and some Irish famine victims... My deductions from this was that most of my hippy friends were just plain gullible ('you? A poor musician with an inflated sense of self worth? Alan-a-Dale? No way!), and my well educated historian friend (aka: Wolfe) has a romantic soul yearning for action beyond his books...

I don't think any facts based on a science of 'suggestion' can be plausibley used as evidence.
dmkraig
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Curious. I've worked PLR with thousands of people and not one was Cleopatra, Marie, Little John or Napoleon. I wonder why it is only the debunkers and mockers who seem to find such people.

Be that as it may, one of the current theories of PLR is the "Pool of Souls" concept. The basic idea is that our memories--here called "souls"-- go, at death, into a large pool. During your life, you are going to need certain experiences, beliefs, concepts in order to evolve (whatever that may mean). As part of this you can tap into the "pool."

The "pool" is like a networked, write-once-read-many-times hard drive. Numerous people can access information that was put in by one person. Thus, if 10 or 1,000 or 50,000,000 people need to access the memories--including feelings, emotions, etc.--of Cleopatra, they can do so.

Of course, the "pool" may not be that of past lives. It may simply be a collection of thoughts. Therefore, it wouldn't be the actual memories of Marie Antoinette, but rather what people think of her. This would be similar to Jung's concept of an aspect of what he (and many licensed psychologists and psychiatrists) call the "collective unconscious" and his concept of "archetypes."

Thus, if this theory is accurate, it allows for multiple people experiencing the life of a single person without the necessity of your "multiple personalities" as you describe in your misogynistic post. No, PLR doesn't prove reincarnation. Again, if this theory is accurate, it would only indicate that we can tap into a common pool of information.

The bottom line, IMO, is not the objective reality of reincarnation, by the incredibly valuable therapeutic tool that Past Life Regression can be in the hands of a trained professional.
mindpunisher
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Of course theories are just theories. But the word 'invent' means to find. Which pressuposes that every thing ever invented and what will be invented or discovered already exists. We tap into it.

It is strange how inventors in different parts of the world have come up with same or similar inventions about the same time.

I can't remember the details but there was one case where monkey's were taught to use tools to dig for food. And it was observed that neighbouring monkey's on an island started to develop the same behaviour with no contact.

Sorry I can't remember the details.
Greg Arce
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On 2009-06-20 14:16, mindpunisher wrote:
Of course theories are just theories. But the word 'invent' means to find. Which pressuposes that every thing ever invented and what will be invented or discovered already exists. We tap into it.

It is strange how inventors in different parts of the world have come up with same or similar inventions about the same time.

I can't remember the details but there was one case where monkey's were taught to use tools to dig for food. And it was observed that neighbouring monkey's on an island started to develop the same behaviour with no contact.

Sorry I can't remember the details.


There was an actual study of this phenomena way back. They tested people with crossword puzzles that first no one saw but the group. Then they tested a group with the same crossword puzzles, but now that crossword puzzle had hit the papers so hundreds of thousands had worked on it.

They also used Japanese poems that little children learn. The same person who wrote most of them was asked to write new ones.

In both test cases they found that people learned stuff faster once others had seen or worked on the same material. It sort of hinted at a collective consciousness.

Greg
One of my favorite quotes: "A critic is a legless man who teaches running."
Greg Arce
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Quote:
On 2009-06-20 14:16, mindpunisher wrote:
Of course theories are just theories. But the word 'invent' means to find. Which pressuposes that every thing ever invented and what will be invented or discovered already exists. We tap into it.

It is strange how inventors in different parts of the world have come up with same or similar inventions about the same time.

I can't remember the details but there was one case where monkey's were taught to use tools to dig for food. And it was observed that neighbouring monkey's on an island started to develop the same behaviour with no contact.

Sorry I can't remember the details.


There was an actual study of this phenomena way back. They tested people with crossword puzzles that first no one saw but the group then tested a group with the same crossword puzzles, but now that crossword puzzle had hit the papers so hundreds of thousands had worked on it.

They also used Japanese poems that little children learn. The same person who wrote most of them was asked to write new ones.

In both test cases they found that people learned stuff faster once others had seen or worked on the same material. It sort of hinted at a collective consciousness.

Greg
One of my favorite quotes: "A critic is a legless man who teaches running."
robini
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On 2009-06-15 15:44, TonyB2009 wrote:
Hi Richard. Thanks for that link. Interesting presentation.


Agreed. Quite interesting. I think I might post it to the ongoing "atheist" thread in the Stand The Test forum.

As to this PLR silliness, if hypnosis hasn't even proven particularly reliable for the accurate "recovery" of memories in one's current lifetime, which I don't believe it has, how likely is it to be any more reliable for recovering memories from a supposed "past life"?

Of course, I might be a little surprised if some True Believer didn't pounce on me demanding "evidence" in support of this contention -- as if the burden of proof was mine to disprove such an "extraordinary" and unfounded (and I might say utterly "outrageous") claim or belief.
robini
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On 2009-06-20 14:16, mindpunisher wrote:
Of course theories are just theories. But the word 'invent' means to find. Which pressuposes that every thing ever invented and what will be invented or discovered already exists. We tap into it.


A claim having no evidence supporting it AFAIK.

Quote:
It is strange how inventors in different parts of the world have come up with same or similar inventions about the same time.


I don't think that's particularly "strange" at all. Chances are it's simply because they were working on the same idea at the same time, and as likely as not, having similar pre-existing scientific or other information and/or technology to work with at around the same time.

Quote:
I can't remember the details but there was one case where monkey's were taught to use tools to dig for food. And it was observed that neighbouring monkey's on an island started to develop the same behaviour with no contact.

Sorry I can't remember the details.


Obviously without sufficient details it's difficult to comment, let alone accept it as evidence of anything "extraordinary."
mindpunisher
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Yawnnnnnn!
robini
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On 2009-07-19 11:54, mindpunisher wrote:
Yawnnnnnn!


Indeed, fantasies are sometimes more "fun" than mundane facts. I guess that's why many people like to believe them.
mindpunisher
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Its also easy to cry proof and appear intelligent and knowledgable when in fact you have nothing of value to add to a thread.

If you want me to dig up the facts I can easily. I'll do the research for $100 an hour. These aren't fantasies they are based upon past readings. so send me $200 by paypal and I will dig up the refrences for you.

Perhaps you should read and study more before making an ass of yourself. Why don't you do the research yourself. You might even learn something.

So many twats on this forum.
dmkraig
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On 2009-06-20 14:16, mindpunisher wrote:
Of course theories are just theories. But the word 'invent' means to find. Which pressuposes that every thing ever invented and what will be invented or discovered already exists. We tap into it.



Actually, "invent" means "create or design," specific meaning creating or designing something that has not existed before. A similar word, "discover," means find. Thus, you would discover an island, not invent it, and you would invent a new cleaning device that had never existed before, not discover it.

Quote:
It is strange how inventors in different parts of the world have come up with same or similar inventions about the same time.

I can't remember the details but there was one case where monkey's were taught to use tools to dig for food. And it was observed that neighbouring monkey's on an island started to develop the same behaviour with no contact.

Sorry I can't remember the details.


This story was made famous in the book _The Hundredth Monkey_ by Ken Keyes. The actual claim was that some monkeys learned to prefer washing sweet potatoes. They taught this by demonstration to younger monkeys. After a certain number of monkeys learned the behavior, is suddenly appeared in the behaviors of monkeys having no physical contact with the original monkeys.

Although originally based on some superficial studies, Keyes originally presented the information not as fact, but as a metaphor for the power of cooperation. However, this metaphor has been endlessly repeated as fact rather than symbolic myth.

Be that as it may, even if this story is mythic, there is some evidence to support the concept. It was introduced by the biochemist Dr. Rupert Sheldrake in his book _A New Science of Life_ where he called the principle behind it "Morphic Resonance."

I saw him give a presentation, which had been shown on BBC television. It began with showing a large group of people a page with a complex squiggle of lines on it. The people are told that there is a line drawing of an animal hidden within the squiggle. A certain percentage of people saw it. The test was run in Britain and the U.S. and the results were about the same.

Then, the image was broadcast on TV in England, showing how a line drawing of a horse was hidden in the squiggle. Later, another group in England is tested. A larger percentage of people were able to see the horse.

Now, this could have been because many people saw the revelation on TV. However, after the TV revelation was shown in England, people were also tested in the U.S. where there was no TV shown of this and yet the percentage of people who were able to see the hidden image increased by a similar percentage.

Sheldrake proposes some sort of means of communication that is non-physical. That theory may or may not be factual. Debunkers mock it while believers use it to support all sorts of non-physical phenomena.

Whatever the cause and method, the phenomenon is...interesting.
dmkraig
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On 2009-07-19 09:06, robini wrote:

As to this PLR silliness, if hypnosis hasn't even proven particularly reliable for the accurate "recovery" of memories in one's current lifetime, which I don't believe it has, how likely is it to be any more reliable for recovering memories from a supposed "past life"?

Of course, I might be a little surprised if some True Believer didn't pounce on me demanding "evidence" in support of this contention -- as if the burden of proof was mine to disprove such an "extraordinary" and unfounded (and I might say utterly "outrageous") claim or belief.


Robini, I don't know where you come up with these ideas you present as facts when they are actually quite false.

Hypnosis is incredibly reliable for helping people recover memories in one's current lifetime. However, not all hypnotists are capable of doing this forensic work. Your comment is like saying that because doctors who specialize in family medicine consistently fail at brain surgery, then brain surgery isn't very successful.

The facts are that people who have incomplete training in this specialized field of hypnosis still attempt to do it. The result of this has been nothing less than disastrous. In another area you admitted you made claims but had not studied the facts. If you want to actually learn about the facts of the untrained people who have ruined lives because they were not professionals see the book _Return of the Furies_ by Hollida Wakefield and Ralph Underwager.

If you want to learn about how professionals who have studied and been trained in forensic hypnosis have helped people and courts, I would suggest that you contact Inspector Marx Howell, a recognized expert in the forensic application of hypnosis with police departments (he is also an expert at criminal personality profiling). Marx has provided training in hypnosis and criminal investigative analysis to numerous law enforcement personnel throughout the United States. Inspector Howell is a 32 year veteran of the Texas State Police, a graduate of the FBI National Academy, served in the U.S.M.C., and holds a Bachelor of Science degree in Criminal Justice.

Robini, have you taken any professional, in-person training in hypnotherapy and especially PLR? My guess is that you have never taken so much as one training. If you had, you would know that the position of trained hypnotists is identical to that of professional psychotherapists. Specifically, the objective reality of PLR is irrelevant. The subjective reality of the experience is valuable in that it shows conceptual thinking of the unconscious mind and is therefore useful in therapy.

If you want to make claims without facts to support those claims, that's up to you. However, thanks to the internet, there are always going to be people who will reveal that you are making false claims.
JohnRaven
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Despite any claims to the contrary, there are no legitimate scientific organizations or communities who accept past life regression of existance of reincarnation.

Personally, I don't know. And I tell my students that... I don't know. It's possible that hypnosis allows the person to access their "soul", which might have been through many lifetimes, if you believe in that. Note, that most Christian religions based on the Bible do (or should) take exception since the Bible says that the spirit returns to God and many of them believe in heaven where the spirit would be garbed in robes and flitting about on wings.

It's equally possible that the subconscious mind, with access to every single thing you have heard, seen, read, felt... heard in the background, etc. and creates a subconscious manifestation of what you are asking them about.

Most subjects doing past life regressions WANT to have a past life regression, the scripts most hypnotists use are very leading... and the subconscious would be creating the "memories"... not much different from when I tell people on stage that they won't see me, that I become invisible. Just because they don't believe that they see me, doesn't mean I'm truly invisible. Their minds create the illusion that I am. It's equally possible that everything is being created based on information you've seen, read, etc.

But the fact is, I don't know. And I'm willing to admit it.

I will say this... if pastlife regressions do work... there seems to be an awful lot of Merlins, Arthurs, Joan of Arcs, etc. floating around....
dmkraig
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John, I agree with you that PLR neither proves nor disproves the objective reality of reincarnation. I've said that from the beginning of this thread.

I would point out that your interpretation of the Bible is only one interpretation. It is the most common Protestant and Roman Catholic view, but it is not the only view.

Finally, I've taken thousands of people through PLR, and not one has claimed to be anyone famous. No Merlins, Arthurs, Joans, etc., floating around. In fact, I've known several hypnotists who specialize in PLR, and none of them have ever said that they have lots of people claiming to be famous personalities from the past.

Personally, I think this assumption may be a myth. However, let's assume that this is true. There is actually a theory that could account for it known as the "Pool of Souls." That is, after death your supposed soul, or at least the collection of your memories, goes into a pool with all other souls and/or memories. The theory of reincarnation is based upon the concept that you need multiple lives to spiritually advance. So as you are ready to do so, you choose those memories you need that will help you in your next incarnation. Think of this pool of souls as a sort of "read only memory." You can read those memories and put them into your mind, but you do not take them away from the pool. Therefore, if this theory is valid, it could explain how many people could have memories leading them to believe they are the same famous person of the past.

But as I've stated, I have never seen it and think this is a myth about PLR.

It may be, however, that when I discuss this before taking people through PLR it "programs" them into not having a memory of someone famous. I don't know. What I do like to share is the comment of famed mystic Dion Fortune, who wrote that a famous past life doesn't give more importance to your current life so much as make one wonder what you did to end up in your current ordinary life.
Orville Smith
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Recently I heard about a Reincarnation book entitled "The Boy Who Knew Too Much." Written by Catherine Byrd, it's about her son who from the age of 2 years old "remembered" he was Lou Gehrig. To make matters even more bizarre, when Catherine was put under hypnotic regression, it was found she was the Mother of Lou Gehrig! Of course I take this with a grain of salt, but what I find highly persuasive are the experiences written in a previous post by a professional therapist who uses hypnotic regression to cure his clients. Although somewhat skeptical, I keep my mind open especially when I see how hypnotic regression is used so effectively as a medical cure.
Mindpro
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8 years old and this STILL has nothing to do with performance hypnosis.
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