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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » RNT II Don Alan Anniversary Cup (Chop) (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Jamie D. Grant
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Hiya Gang!

I recently picked up one of these. Let's see if I can find a picture...

http://www.martinka.com/martinka/auction......id=14521

That's the one.

Anyways, I bought a baseball and the cup (depth wise) is a fraction too small. The baseball loads in no problem, but the cup will not sit flush on a counterstop (it will wobble). On a closeup pad, the sponge takes up the difference but not on a hard surface.

I thought maybe I had a wrong sized weird Canadian baseball or something, so I just bought another and it's the same thing...

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

jamie
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Krazyjay
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That's a nice cup Jamie. I would try to find a used baseball or just play with the one you have. A baseball is 9 to 9.25 inches or 22.86 to 23.495 centimeters in circumference. If you don't want the used baseball then, take the cup with you to the store and start putting balls in it. I had to, but be prepared for the people to look at you funny.

Jeremy
Bill Palmer
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This is normal for the Don Alan Stubby Cup, no matter whether it is the anniversary model or not. The answer is simple. Work on a close-up mat.

If you would prefer not to use a mat, which you should be using anyway in order to kill the sound of the small ball when it drops, then use a tennis ball.
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Pete Biro
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Or an onion or potato
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Bill Palmer
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My experience buying baseballs is that there is less variation in over the counter baseballs than there is in lacrosse balls, although the amount of permitted variation is about the same -- 1/4" divided by pi, which comes to .0795 inches, just a tad more than 1/16 of an inch.

There are Pee Wee League baseballs, which are 8.5 inches in circumference. These are available at most of your really big sporting goods stores, or you can order then from Dick's Sports. You may have to order a dozen, though.

The soft pad, I think, is the best answer, because once you produce the baseball, you can put it next to the cup, and it will look too big for the cup. The illusion is even better than it is with a Paul Fox cup.
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mballen11502
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I had one of these with a baseball and had the same problem. I sold it to a friend and his baseball fit under it perfectly so you can find the right size you just may have to take it in the store with you which I think was mentioned earlier...
Hayre
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The pad certainly masks the problem. But making the cup about 1/16 of an inch taller, to fit a normal baseball, would have solved one of the two biggest flaws of this cup. Weight..perfect. Asthetics...beautiful. But am I the only one bothered by the fact that a lining of different color and metal makes it much simpler for an intelligent laymen (and there are many) to figure out the secret.

Anyway, I put it on the shelf to look at, and use the much smaller, heavier copper Riser, designed for tennis balls. And they actually fit as advertised.
Donnie Buckley
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Hayre, I just want to jump in here and comment on your observation on this old thread about one of my favorite cups.
The lining was added to that cup because the goal was to make the cup from steel. The lining is non-ferrous. If you are at all familiar with a chop cup, you know what problems you would have trying to use a steel cup.

Personally I love the look of contrasting metals and the glamour of a magician's prop that looks elegant. Sterling silver cups with gold plated interiors are often presented as commemoratives or trophies and make excellent looking props for a sophisticated performance of magic. I think it is "magician's guilt" that would make you think that a layman is going to associate the lining of the cup with the trick. After all, the lining can't hide a tennis ball...

Plus, the DA Stubby cup is still a lovely cup reminiscent of the sawed off Al Wheatley Master Junior cup that Don Alan popularized - which won't take a baseball either. I still make those Al Wheatley cups for Stevens Magic, only now they are known as the Ken Brooke Junior Chop Cup and they swallow an entire tennis ball.

Finally, I'll add that the tooling for the Don Alan Stubby cup has been lost forever. If I ever get the time and energy to recreate it (and I WANT to), the saddle will be modified to provide that additional 3/16" that is needed to completely cover a baseball. It's a very difficult cup to make, even with the proper tooling.

When I bought RNT2 in 2009 I thoroughly investigated and detailed the load capacity of all the cups as I made them. It's all on the website for each and every one of them. That's 21 different sets of cups for cups and balls and 10 different chop cups. RNT2 doesn't engage in false advertising as insinuated.
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Bill Palmer
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I got one of the first of these. Then I got the prototype and I got Mike Brazill's personal Copper/church bronze stubby. I never found the slight discrepancy of the baseball to be an inconvenience. I always work on a close up pad, so there is no problem at all.

I don't know how many of you may have a set of the instructions for the Charlie Miller Indian Cups that were put out by Morrissey. He recommended that you work on a piece of carpet sample so that when you load the largest balls into them, the balls will sink into the carpet.

If you are not working on a soft surface, this discrepancy will be the least of your worries, anyway.

If you have laymen figuring out how your chop cup works, there is a problem in your handling, not in the cup.
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pepka
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Beautiful cup, I hope you find something that works. Oh, and when you put the words Canadian and baseball right next to each other, it gave me the willies.
Jamie D. Grant
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Just to be clear, so there's absolutely zero confusion:

Donnie is the greatest!
RNT2 is the greatest!

I have no doubt that I have a wonderful product. I was just curious about the size and that's been answered- thanks!

Hurrah!

~jamie

Quote:

On 2010-09-01 01:47, pepka wrote:
Beautiful cup, I hope you find something that works. Oh, and when you put the words Canadian and baseball right next to each other, it gave me the willies.
[/quote]

What about Blue next to Jays, lol?
TRICK OF THE YEAR: Industrial Revelation, BOOK OF THE YEAR: The Approach, The AIP Bottle, and my new book Scenic 52, can all be found over here: SendWonder.com
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Donnie Buckley
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Quote:

On 2010-09-01 01:11, Bill Palmer wrote:
I don't know how many of you may have a set of the instructions for the Charlie Miller Indian Cups that were put out by Morrissey. He recommended that you work on a piece of carpet sample so that when you load the largest balls into them, the balls will sink into the carpet.
[/quote]

I had forgotten about that. I do have an old set of the original instructions that came with the Charlie Miller Indian Cups and I still have a lovely black shag carpet sample that I picked up to practice the routine with.
That carpet sample has been laying around my magic room for years and has been used for a variety of purposes - but it was the CM Indian Cups that made me pick it up. I totally forgot about that.

Posted: Sep 1, 2010 7:46am
AND:
Jamie D Grant is the greatest!
Magic Friday is the greatest!
Congratulations on your new studio and space too! I enjoyed your video on the Heirloom Wallet and the tour of your new digs. Magic Friday is one of my favorite aspects of the Café.
Thanks for being you Jamie!
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Bill Palmer
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Quote:
On 2010-09-01 01:47, pepka wrote:
Beautiful cup, I hope you find something that works. Oh, and when you put the words Canadian and baseball right next to each other, it gave me the willies.


On the other hand, when you put football next to what we play in the States, it gives everyone in the rest of the world the willies.

In Texas, football is a religion. The definition of a Texas Atheist is someone who goes to the SMU (Methodist) - Baylor (Baptist) game and doesn't care which side wins.
"The Swatter"

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Dougini
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Hey, Bill! I was wondering if you'd mind PM'ing me. I posted this in "Trick Coin Trickery", but since you've been here today...I have a question for ya.

Doug
Hayre
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I'll stand by my message and opinion. But, I find the responses insightful and interesting reading.

DOnnie, there was nothing in my post that insulated that there was false advertising. I never saw any advertising that claimed it was made for a baseball. But, it doesn't fit most normal baseballs without a close up pad. And that is unfortunate...regardless of how it came about...

I have done the Chop Cup, oh about a thousand times, and I don't normally use a pad. Never caught...never questioned. But, I still wouldn't use a cup with a different lining. Many of you have gone on and on about the virtues of the Riser Innocent cup.... if the near invisible nature of its lining is a plus, then a different lining is probably a drawback, just to be fair.

By the way, over coffee in Eureka several years ago, Mike B. stated that he wished that the lining was the same metal as the cup.

Posted: Sep 8, 2010 12:14am
Maybe this was the part of my original post that was taken as insinuating that RNT2 used false advertising. I was just pointing out that the Riser cup had no issues whatsoever about the size of balls (tennis) that Riser says will fit.

---------excerpt
Anyway, I put it on the shelf to look at, and use the much smaller, heavier copper Riser, designed for tennis balls. And they actually fit as advertised.
--------------

ALso, to be fair about the Mike B. conversation, he had just dropped a mint condition ORIGINAL RNT dove pan that another collector owned ON A CONCRETE FLOOR. And Bill Pitts piped up and said - 'Don't worry, Mike...you can get most of those dents out with a hammer'. Maybe Mike was rattled.
Bill Palmer
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What would that have to do with the Don Alan chop cup with a liner?

As far as the "innocent" style chop cup is concerned, the design has been around a very long time. The first ones were actually made from cocktail shakers. Yendor's World of Magic put one out about 30 years ago. One you don't see often is The Cup and a Half by Larry King/Leon Buenger. Roger Nicot's Bar Cup has a similar design.

The main thing that Riser introduced to this design was the offset gimmick. And that is of dubious value, IMHO.

I believe that if you worry about the liner of the cup, your spectators will, too. If you don't, they won't. It's pretty simple.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

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Dale Houck
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Quote:
On 2010-09-08 03:05, Bill Palmer wrote:

The main thing that Riser introduced to this design was the offset gimmick. And that is of dubious value, IMHO.



The cup designs were different, but the offset gimmick was used 25+ years ago in some cups. I remember a leather dice cup that used that design that was around back then, but I can't remember who made it. I do remember that Mike Rose had one for sale not long ago. I would concur that it is of dubious value unless you want to "entertain" fellow magicians who might not be aware of it.
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Donnie Buckley
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An offset gimmick actually works against me.
It is a simple matter to hold the cup with the mouth tilted towards the spectator and have them drop the gimmicked ball into the cup. The ball can plainly be seen to roll around inside the cup until I allow it to settle. I've done this many times and IF I had been using an offset gimmick I would need to then keep track of which side of the cup was offered. It is totally unnecessary.
I think that Mike B's idea of "a lining that is the same metal as the shell" is a good one that probably should have been produced as a variation on this cup - for those that think a contrasting lining is an indication that the cup is double walled and therefor a tip to the method (even though the original purpose of the lining was to allow the manufacturer to make the shell out of steel).

Now, I've never had this problem. My routine is fast paced (a la Don Alan) and the ball appears under the cup only three times before the loads begin (including the opening, "OK, let's begin." surprise).

I think, in the spectator's mind, the big question is "how did that lemon get under the cup?" and overrules "how did that ball get under the cup?", provided your routine is paced just fast enough that they don't have time to speculate before you are on to the BIGGER mystery.
I've always felt that Don Alan hit the nail on the head when he stated that the trick is all about the loads ("... that's what they came to see..."). I go one step further and will state that the gimmick is just there to cover and fascilitate the loading sequence. In other words, the Chop Cup is NOT about the little ball unexplainably appearing under the cup - it is instead about the BIG STUFF that appears under the cup (and the LITTLE stuff is just an entertaining COVER to get you there).
And, I feel the same way about the Cups and Balls. You can do some very entertaining and magical things with the cups and the little balls, (and you NEED to in order to draw the audience in and direct them with expectations and repetition of movements) but in the end... this is just there to cover the moves required to perform the jumbo loads, which IS the most memorable and most magical part of the effect.
I mean think about it. If you could put three empty cups on any table and snap your fingers and have fruit instantly appear under the cups, you would! But you can't, so an indirect path is taken to this goal. That indirect path can, and should be, a lot of fun and very magical all on its own; it is what makes a presentation of the cups and balls exceptional or ho-hum, but the loads aren't just the finale, they're the reason for the trick!
I think Johnny "Ace" Palmer sums it up best when he says in the end of his routine, "...the balls reappear under the cups... and turn into potatoes." That bewildering declaration is one of the smartest things I have ever heard a magician say during a cups and balls routine - it turns the loads on their head and really plays off of the imagination of the audience.

This, of course, is just based upon my own theories of sleight-of-hand magic and the mental aspects of presenting cup routines to a lay audience. I subscribe to the theories of Al Schneider who stated "until an object reappears, the audience will continue to try to figure out 'where did it go' and they will back track the movements you have made until they come to a point that they determine was where the dirty work occurred". He went on to say that, "as soon as the object reappears, they stop trying to figure out where it went. They get release and they move on." I am paraphrasing from memory, but the core of the idea is there.
I think the same is true for a chop cup. They will try to determine the method, and may even land on the actual method (it is not rocket science after all), UNLESS you are moving on to the larger loads immediately. Moving on to the larger loads simply negates the methods they were riddling out for the smaller ball.

And to my knowledge, there is not a cup in the world that can be shown empty and hide a tennis ball and lemon in it at the same time - a trick cup simply doesn't explain this and is not the path your audience will take in trying to riddle it out. I postulate that I could use a cup with big red letters on it that says "TRICK CUP" and my audience will still have no idea how the trick was done.

Sorry for going on so long, but in the spirit of Magicians Helping Magicians, I thought that some theory should be elaborated on in this thread about whether or not a cup design can be a tip to the method.
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First of all Donnie, I tend to agree that the focus of the cups and balls is the final load.

Secondly, even though I know it's missing the point, I thought I'd mention that with a Delaporte cups and balls table, you technically could just sit empty cups down, snap your fingers, and have fruit appear under them.

Perhaps needless to say, I would never actually recommend anyone do that.

Cheers!
Matthew Martin
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Have you ever seen the Delaporte table? There is a lot more going on there than you can even imagine. There is only one of them, and it is in the possession of Ray Goulet.
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conjurormatt
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Hi Bill, my only information on the Delaporte table is what is described at the end of Michael Ammar's book, I know that it's a pretty complicated table, but from the description given in the Ammar book, it seemed that what I describe above could be possible. Not having seen the original personally, I might be way off the mark.

As always, I welcome corrections, as they only aid in my education.
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Tim Dowd
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Hey Donnie do the words "TRICK CUP" also come in blue? Smile
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Donnie Buckley
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"TRICK CUP" is currently only available in red, but "TV MAGIC CUP" comes in blue.
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Jamie,
Email or PM John Kingry and he'll probably sell you just 1 or 2 of the smaller baseballs so you don't have to buy a dozen.
Bill
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Quote:
On 2010-09-09 01:07, conjurormatt wrote:
Hi Bill, my only information on the Delaporte table is what is described at the end of Michael Ammar's book, I know that it's a pretty complicated table, but from the description given in the Ammar book, it seemed that what I describe above could be possible. Not having seen the original personally, I might be way off the mark.

As always, I welcome corrections, as they only aid in my education.


Michael didn't tip all of the features. I saw it at Ray's mini museum about 4 years ago. It's quite clever. It does all you say, but then a lot more. You can cover a ball with a cup, and the ball will disappear. Very clean.
"The Swatter"

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conjurormatt
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Quote:
On 2010-09-09 21:43, Bill Palmer wrote:

Michael didn't tip all of the features. I saw it at Ray's mini museum about 4 years ago. It's quite clever. It does all you say, but then a lot more. You can cover a ball with a cup, and the ball will disappear. Very clean.


Ok, Bill, nice to know, I think the ball vanishing was mentioned in Ammar, but as you say, I'm sure there is plenty more that could be done. I'm almost surprised that no one has tried to replicate it. Though I suppose a throughly gaffed cups and balls wouldn't appeal to many.
Matthew Martin
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Mad Jake
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WTB one of these if someone has one for sale, could you please message me.

Thanks,
Mad Jake
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