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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Several recent threads have dealt with assumptions about what the audience thinks,
and some controversial ways of justifying your guess. Perhaps this will help. written earlier for another purpose ... MAGIC and PERCEPTION Recollections of an actual experiment conducted in 1965 at the University of Nevada, Reno is an Anthropology Class offered by Dr. Azevedo. While exploring the influence of religiosity on various cultures the issue of Shaman, Medicine men, Priests and Vizers using magic tricks to bolster their position in the community, or to sustain attention and mystery with the members. I offered to conduct a demonstration as to the perceptions of class members as to the differences between performance magic and magick. He agreed with only a couple of suggestions to my plan. I performed six effects. For each the story line attributed the miracle to a particular method: a little known natural property, sleight of hand, psi powers, gimmicked prop, chemistry or visual illusion. After the performance each student filled out a questionnaire. Part of that required matching each Effect with the correct Method. It was explained that NONE of the explanations given during the performance was correct for the Effect presented, but that all of the Methods were used once and only once. Each then wrote a paragraph on which Effects might be used by a Medicine Man to support his healing and spiritual work. I did not see the final paragraphs, but the results of the Match-Up was discussed in class and was part of the final exam. of the 22 members of the class excluding myself: 1) no one correctly matched up all six Effects/Methods, 2) sixteen students had insisted that several Methods had been used more than once, 3) “gimmicked prop” was the only Method identified correctly more than 50%, 4) “Sleight of Hand” was the most popular selection at 63%, 5) 61% thought I had betrayed them by not warning them that my Patter did not match the Effect. 6) all but one student agreed that the use of magic tricks could enhance a Medicine Man’s effectiveness in a community. The one that disagreed had also entered “divine hand” for every Method. The professor was pleased and expounded on answer #5, questioning whether it would have made a difference if I had identified myself as something other than a magician. He asked how many would have answered differently if I had been introduced as a Shaman for a distant land. Everyone raised his/her hand. A year later the Professor told me at a chance meeting that he had interested several other instructors in conducting similar experiments, but that none had found a magician willing to present things as I had done. I saw one of the students thirty years later and he remembered the experiment and asked a question about one of the effects. ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….. I would love to be able to repeat this and similar experiments with various age cohorts and presentation approaches including video/live comparisons. The greatest impact of the experiment on me personally was heightened awareness that simply saying, “I am a magician!” has an tremendous effect on a spectator’s perceptions of following events, and that a level of trust has been established. I used this knowledge in sales training and teaching in later years.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-08-20 04:56, funsway wrote: And to be provocative, I'll ask this: is this a good thing or a bad thing? |
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
Now, Funsway, that is one of the most interesting posts I have ever read on the
Café! Would love to hear more details if you ever feel like sharing... Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
I have seen many things on TV done by magicians where the magician does not declare he is a magician to the public and shows them magic and they think it is actual magic. Then they are told no its just trick and that he in fact is only a magician. What is the difference beteen that and what you are speakng about? If there is no difference then you can find stuff like that on youtube I am sure. I think Darren Brown did a few.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
The key, Tommy, is that regardless of the preception of the audience as to who the performer is, they cannot match cause and effect when 'magic' is one of the options -- or perhaps because there are options. We keep pretending we can make routining decisions based on guessing what the audience thinks. Maybe our energies should be placed elsewhere.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Michael Kamen Inner circle Oakland, CA 1315 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-08-20 05:40, stoneunhinged wrote: Good question. Does the #5 response imply a level of willing credulity on the part of these college students if funsway had been identified as a shaman, or am I misreading this?
Michael Kamen
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Michael Kamen Inner circle Oakland, CA 1315 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-08-20 10:02, funsway wrote: Not so fast funsway. You may be right, but your logic is not yet clear to me. Sorry if I am a bit slow. What are the implications of the question 5 response? How do you connect that with your conclusion above?
Michael Kamen
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
There are two parts here to consider. First, it was established that none of the students had the abililty to match observed effect with a pausible explanation -- the focus of many recent post here on the Café. The second question was the paragraph on which effects might be used by a Medicine Man/Shaman in his work. I never saw those submissions, but could gather from Dr. Azevedo's line of questions that he was surprised that students could suggest an effect be used by a Shaman when they had no idea of whether it was science, magic, skill or other cause. Had I been been introduced as a Shaman their answers to the second question might have been different, and their matchings might have been different, but there was no indication the matching would have been more accurate. Of course this polling was biased by the fact that the students knew they were wrong in the first place, so it was easy to say they would do better on a retake, now that the "trust" factor was eliminated (#5). If I had been introduced as a financial analyst the answers would have been different also. Remember, only one of the effects could have been attributed to magick -- therefore, thinking I was an analyst or mathematician or politician would have required one answer be 'magick'. Saying I was a magician may have increased the desire to attribute more effects to magcik, but that was not allowed -- each student forced to look for other alternative. It was my feeling at the time that many would cheerfully have used 'magick' as the prefered answer for several effects. Once the seed was planted they did not seek alternative solutions until forced to. The only reason 'Shaman' was chosen as the alternative is because that is what the class was about, not that this label would have effected credulity.
This is why I would love to be part of further studies. Would the percentages change by age gorup, demographics, religious bias or financial condition? I would be willing to bet that they would not change appreciably. The question on the final exam asked for opinions as to why the students were unable to identify magick from skill, science,etc., and to what extend "trust" had to do with answers (#5) -- not anything to do with the percentages or specific effect or answer. I wish I had those answers. Perhaps the greatest insight for me was that the words I used to explain what was happening had a greated impact that the effect itself. Somehow, saying I was a magician prepared them for "being fooled," but did not indicate that I might lie to them.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Laymen do not have the ability to match magic effects with plausible explanations if they did there wouldn’t be any magic.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Michael Kamen Inner circle Oakland, CA 1315 Posts |
Funsway,
Thanks for trying to explain -- I remain very fuzzy on both your experimental design and the logic leading to your conclusion. However, I am letting that go because my personal experience confirms your conclusion, 'Perhaps the greatest insight for me was that the words I used to explain what was happening had a greater impact that the effect itself. Somehow, saying I was a magician prepared them for "being fooled," but did not indicate that I might lie to them.'
Michael Kamen
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Thanks -- that is why I said, "less than perfect" This demonstration was not designed as anything beyond a class project to give visual impact to some concepts than many students found vague -- magick vs. magic. The professor took it further than I had thought and I wish I had a chance to see the written responses. If I ever have a chance to repeat such an experiment I will have better controls in place. My conclusions come from 'being there' -- both for the presentation and the later reaction to the questions. I could feel the shifting of emotions including fear. Yet I know the negative reactions were not directed at me, but rather at their personal experiences of being dupted by people in their lives who pretended to have 'powers' but only did tricks.
As a result of this 'experiment' I have been active in public forums, writings and online groups to fight for clarity between these issues. I believe that anyone using conjury as a pretext for gaining power over another is a fraud. I had never before understood how gullible the 'masses' are. I also decided not to become a professional magician.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
So one of the effects was performed by psi powers? Could you explain further?
Jack
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Psi powers. I demonstrated the ability of any person to detect a sharp metal object entering his energy field. Have a person sit in a chair looking straight ahead. Using a long sharp object like a meat skewer, bring it close to his/her eyes slowly until he blinks. This accentuates the fear of blindness aspect of their value system and gains complete attention. Now, have him close his eyes while you approach his head from different angles with the instructions, "Say stop when this sharp point is about 2 inches from your head." If an attempt fails just pull back and try again. The indiviual will key off of th group energy as well. You should be able to achieve 90% acurate response.
I learned this from Arnold Furst. In the 'experiment' I told the students that it was a special property of a metal forged from a meteorite into a sword.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Thanks. I once thought of a way to make a one way deck that could be used by a blind man - one uses black line or punch work one end.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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wsduncan Inner circle Seattle, WA 3619 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-08-20 10:02, funsway wrote: The fact that a small percentage of humans are delusional (cf. "Divine Hand") should not enter into our plans, excepting to avoid them when sharp objects or fire are present. Our job as a performers is to control the audiences perception of the events, and of the "reality" of the effect. The fact that we have imperfect control is something to be taken into account, but it should not change the focus of our attempts. I think too often magicians don't plan for what the audience should be thinking during an effect. If you haven't decided what they're supposed to think at each point of the effect, and done what you can to direct them, how can you blame them for not meeting your expectations? |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-08-22 23:38, wsduncan wrote: I think I agree with what you are saying here except that the word "control" sets my teeth on edge. Later you say "direct" which works better for me. I have no desire to "contol" anyone -- in magic or in life. That is a 'job' I won't apply for. I lead the horse to water. I don't force him to drink.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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wsduncan Inner circle Seattle, WA 3619 Posts |
I get your meaning, but we (little C) control people by what we say no matter what our intent. Better to be conscious of what control we are exerting, and to do it with care, than to be haphazard about it.
I any many magic effects if you don't control people's attention and perception carefully there won't be an effect. Try doing Ashes in the Palm for a drunk, for example... If you can't/don't control their attention they won't even realize what the effect is. |
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
If you think that you control anyone, you are the only one who is fooled but, sorry, this would make YOU a fool. Spectators who are no fools can only be led into something: they are the only ones who can really fool themselves with our help.
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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wsduncan Inner circle Seattle, WA 3619 Posts |
Lawrence, putting spin on a ball is controlling it, no matter how inaccurate the control. Pretending that our actions only control people so far as they are willing to be controlled is simply wrong.
Your simple presence in a room has a controlling factor on others. Any actions you take have a more significant impact. I'm suggesting we take responsibility for that. What you are saying seems to suggest that if I preform a feat of psychic surgery and it is convinging to laymen that it is not my fault they believed it. And frankly, I'm getting a bit tired of being called an egomanic and a fool by you. You're English is far too good for you to pretend these are not intentional comments. |
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Dreadnought Special user Athens, Georgia 836 Posts |
Quote:
3) “gimmicked prop” was the only Method identified correctly more than 50%, Just bear with me this is just me running through some thoughts. I learned early on that the audience is not stupid, so therefore, be on guard and on on my toes. It seems that more and more now-a-days, with the whole you tube thing, that more and more kids know how some of magic is performed, albeit the simple and more traditional magic. BUT: I also know, and this is just from what people tell me later when they try and guess how some illusion was acheived, that when performing card magic most people assume either, sleight of hand or a "Trick deck" as many have seen the various gaffed cards and decks. With full illusions some automatically think of smoke, mirrors and magnets. In all cases, some ideas they come up with are really unbelievable. One person actually thought that the little red balls in the cups and balls routine, were running up my arm under the skin and out the other hand through a special hole in the table. I just nodded and smiled, "Well that would be a way to do it, a painful way but a way to do it." So, those two stats I quoted are really telling, at least to me. I also wonder if some people know what certain terms mean. I know they confuse black art for black magic, but I wonder if they know what sleight of hand really means. It seems that sleight of hand, in lay terms, is the catch all next to mirrors. I say this because I perform Sum's Crystal Metamorphosis and on several occasions, people came up to me later suggesting, inquiring really, that it was sleight of hand. Anyway, this is all interesting. Thanks Funsway for sharing that.
Peace
"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..." Scott Would you do anything for the person you love? |
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