As long as a deck looks "normal" for a layman you are fine with any deck. A deck where colors are mismatched and are "out of the norm" are not normal any longer and therefore draw suspicion. It is that easy.

The deck was intended to be as close to a Bicycle deck as possible. I do not break any copyright issues in any way, just read the flap of each Bicycle deck and you know what is copyrighted. My deck is printed at USPCC and they checked everything with their law department. We are ready to go.

What will you say if I also announce that there will also be a deck out there that uses so thin cards that two!!! complete decks fit into one card case? And it uses the same faces and backs of the Phoenix Deck! Secret deck switches are finally possible to bring in a thin deck with 104 cards. This was never possible before. And absolutely impossible using the Bicycle brand as they are not able to print thin cards and do not allow other companies to use their brand and design.

With my designs that are owned by me I can choose the best card material from around this planet earth to print the Phoenix Deck on. The Bicycle stock is not the worst decision to start with. Perhaps I will also produce smooth surface decks one day, it is the same Bicycle card stock but without the linen structure that is pressed into the paper after the printing process. Would be easy to do...
Think outside of the box, there is a whole world of possibilities waiting for you. But you can stay with your comfort, that is absolutely fine and nobody will say anything against it. But don´t blame the ones who want to get further and extend the possibilities of today´s card magic.

Christian-

Wow! As a long-time user of your cards, can't wait for these to be available- they look great! This had to be a fun project to pull off, and I wish you the best...

Jim

I'm surely not trying to blame you for anything Christian. In fact I admire you and your work and wish you nothing but the best in this and all your endeavor's.

And I'm not saying that thinking outside the box is a horrible thing.

I was just confused by the statements about "fancy decks" when a "fancy deck" is nothing more than a deck which is not normal. You had said that no "Pro" would touch a "fancy" (Or specialty) deck. These ARE a specialty deck and these would not be normal either. At least here.

I think the point you are missing is that eventually they may become the "norm", the more that people use 'em...and that they are similar enough to be seen as normal...

just classier looking than some fat angels on a square bike!

I'm in the UK - no one has heard of the Bike brand unless they play/watch a lot of american poker...

I enjoy interesting decks, but I'm not a magician, I'm a mentalist - I want to use something that is classier, tactile and still useable...i've been using the Anglo decks for a while, and people just ask "oooh I can look at your posh cards please?" they only want to touch them cos they look pretty!

they don't think they're special as in gaffed...

I remember ages ago, I had a deck in my pocket that had a double-backer, I forget it was in there, someone took the deck and had a look through..then stopped and said "oh? I think you need to buy some new cards - they've messed up the printing on one card....look, the back's been printed twice..."

I like the cards but the box outside I don't know. In my opinion it looks like a cheap bicycle deck (maybe I'm thinking to much like a magician but saying that) I will definitely buy these and give them a try though .

If anyone can remind me... what are thin cards used for?

Just imagine the following situation...

Have a deck of cards face up on the table. Let a spectator name any card. ANY CARD. Spread the cards face up, push their named card forward and close the spread. Turn over the deck and spread again to show that all cards have a red back. Turn over their named card... It is blue. Or there is a writing on the back stating: I knew that you would take the "xxx".

The Ultimate Brainwave Deck. Just imagine that you have two decks in your card case. You can easily show the faces of a complete deck and still have a whole deck left to play around with...

I am planning of coming up with a creativity tournament. Magicians are invited to come up with their best idea using the thin cards. I already asked Max Maven and Patrick Page to be in the Jury to find the best effect and both said yes. The winning idea will be released afterwards and big prises will wait for all the winners. Just give me some more time, the Phoenix has to fly first before he can do more things for the magic community.

Haha : ] maybe can hold a contest similar to Mr. Regal "How do I clink?" to spark off the idea of using such thin cards :]

"How do the birds catch fire?"

Perl Lee

No... I'm not missing that point. However I believe your missing mine and that is that right now, they are not normal. What difference does it make? The difference is that it was stated that certain "Pros" don't like the "Fancy" decks because they are not the norm. However any "Fancy" deck can become the norm as well given enough time. Don't you think? Why then are some trying to make the point that the "pros" would use these cards and not other "Fancy" decks?

This IS a specialty deck in that it is not what is normally seen. To say "Well there are a lot of different cards used and they are generally accepted" throws the entire premise that some "Pros" don't like "Fancy" decks because they are not common right out the window.

I'm just questioning what the "Pros" supposedly said.

Perhaps I am using the wrong term and you can not / do not want to understand me (hey, I am German). With fancy decks I mean decks that do not use the standard colors or standard faces of a POker deck. I don't want to name all decks that fall into that category, but a white print on black background is usually not touched by working pros. Only if they want to use it as bizarre prop.

I think you are missing the point, for anything to become "the norm", they have to start somewhere, Bikes were the new brick on the block at some point...so they were percieved as not normal at first...

ad infinitum...i don't think the fancy decks are printed in enough quantities (and the price reflects that) to be used by everyone...

another thought is this...when you perform should you use what everyone else does? or should you use something else that is percieved as better quality - as you are a professional? its partly down to how you portray yourself obviously, so therefore a personal choice...

however, just because something is everyday, does that automatically discount any others? I'm not putting words into your mouth, merely asking a question...

if I produce an attractive, expensive looking pen for someone to use, will they suspect it having "special ink"? or will they accept it as I am wearing a suit, am generally well turned out etc...

The discussion about nice or not nice is a bit senseless in my opinion.
It will be allways a matter of personal taste.

More important are the pro's and cons in the use of a new deck.
I regret that there is only one joker (or am I wrong?). In many tricks the TWO jokers play a part. (for example some acaan effects and sandwich effects).
Is there a plastic wrap around the deck? In many tricks the plastic wrap plays a roll...
In the gaff assortiment there must be at least a card with a back that is identical to the picture of the cardcase.

Wish you all the best with this new deck !

The packaging of the deck will be identical to a Bicycle deck, means a seal, cellowrap and a hanger.

I never liked the guarantee Joker so this was always the first card that was discarded. I think the decks are reasonably priced to use Jokers of two decks if necsary.

Thank you for the gaff idea with the case face design. Any more wishes?

Will the cellowrap be removed easily with the plastic red line thingy(you know like the thing you use to open a pack of gum? Lol with most bicycle decks the cellowrap thing is impossible to remove and maintain in tact the bottom part,

I too am curious how one can conclude that pro's don't use fancy decks. That's quite an ignorant comment without actually doing dilegent research first. I know several pro's who use fancy decks. Justin Miller is just one off the top of my head. It's hard to get Christian's point when he doesn't make himself clear. I don't blame it on him being German, but rather being contradicting in some of his statements.

Simply put, it's just another deck of cards in a world of thousands. Nothing special or fancy about them at all. I'm not convinced to change from Bikes to these because they offer nothing different than a different look which I personally don't find appealing. Some on the other hand will. But, to be a successor of the Bikes, these cards have to offer improvements in quality. By the sound of things, they are the same quality as Bikes. Fot them to be the norm amongst magicians there would have to be many factors to consider. You can't just create a new deck with a new look and expect magicians to change over, especially if the price is higher than most other decks out there. I prefer cheaper decks because I go through many of them, as I'm sure other magicians do too. I've been following this thread to see if anything said will change my mind, but I do wish all the best to Christian. If they become the norm, I will look for them at my local magic shop.

I am only stateing my opinion on the cards, and have nothing but respect for Christian. I may just buy a deck to support a great contributor to the art of magic.

Do you really think that I start such a huge project without researches and investigations?
I am German and magician, but not stupid and studied marketing and sales. I am running my own business since 1997 and I plan to revolutionize the magic community. I think I already did a pretty well job with my antique deckss that opened up worlds for story telling magicians and bizzarists.

I travelled around the world this year, met hundreds of real working Professionals where I can count most of them to my friends. So I know what I am talking about.

The deck is not intended to be for everyone as I know that I never can compete with a Costco price. My aproach is another one as my service for magicians and the possibilities that I open have a much higher value for a magician than the Dollar that you save on a Bicycle deck.

I too can count on both hands how many pro's USE "fancy decks" that's why I found your statement to be obscure, and lacking in merit. You made a bold statement by stating that no pro would use a fancy deck. If you are going to market your cards as the successor of the Bicycle Deck, you have to understand that as you already mentioned, you are not capable of competing with them. If you can compete with them, how will your deck ever be a successor to the Bicycle Deck? I honestly can't ever see your deck as a successor to the Bikes. With some very bold statements, you have to realize that there will be opposition to it.

P.S. I'm not saying that you are stupid. On the contrary, I believe you are a smart, intelligent man. From what I have read so far, there doesn't seem to be any difference with all the other "fancy" decks already out there, other than your marketing stategy. By the way, being that my wife has worked in marketing for 22 years, I can see through all the hype, and look to see what the product really is and what it can honestly offer. That's why I'm following this thread. But like I said, I see no difference other than your marketing. I do wish you all the best sincerely.

Howie Schwarzman always used Piatnik cards when he was on the road pitching magic. I asked him why he didn't used Bikes most of the magicians I know (I know many magicians but Howie is one of the best) and he told me he used the Piatniks because they looked special, not ordinary. He's out of the business now but he sold Piatnik cards too.

I think your decks look great. I cant wait to get my hands on a deck and see how they work.

Good luck with it all,

-=tabman

I'd like to see a double face deck with same face on each side added to your arsenal. Also we're going to need and Extractor and a Glimpse box. And how about a really nice looking Rainbow Deck with an assortment of classy looking back colors.

I didn't say that they couldn't become the norm. At the same time so can any other deck. Black, white, green or purple. But they WILL NOT become the norm because the public at large will never see them other than in a magicians hands. And that is what we are talking about when we say "The norm". What is normal to the people who we are performing for. Not what is normal to us as magicians. But that's not what I'm getting at for the love of Pete.

I'm wanting to know, 1) Why all of a sudden should we go along with what "Pros" supposedly say is the "Norm"? And 2) Whats the difference between this and any other specialty deck that the "Pros" will supposedly not touch? And Christian sort of answered number 2 for me in that hes talking about odd colors I guess. But as Dan stated, I've seen plenty of "Pros" who use specialty (fancy) decks. Chris Kenner, Dan Garcia, Justin Miller, and Wayne Houchin just to name a very few.

As far as my opinion I think ANY deck would be odd to a layman if it is not something that they are used to seeing. That includes red, blue, yellow, black or green. Tally Ho's probably look pretty weird to someone who has only seen aviator's all thier life.

Come to think of it:
Doesn't Europe already have a card supplier with runs for magicians: Piatnik (in normal European bridge-size)?.
I used these before I could afford Bicycle, wishing that Carta Mundi would come out with trick decks so it would be affordable AND good quality (sorry Piatnik, but I'm a sucker for the linen/air-cushion finishes).