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Joe Mauro
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Watch Mr. Kenner's new $800 gaff coin trick

http://www.coingaffs.com/SuperFly.html

and then watch this $12 trick from Mr.Boykin:

http://www.vinnymarini.com/download/myfly.html

From a layman's perspective, does it matter? Perhaps a professional coin worker can critique and discern a difference, but can a layman?

When a gaff can do a trick that cannot be accomplished by sleight of hand and an extra coin, then I'm all for them. In this case, why bother with an expensive gaff.

Thoughts?

~Joe
~Joe
The Burnaby Kid
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Honestly? Kenner's version has clarity, efficiency, and is a more pure demonstration of the core effect. And I honestly don't think that I'm "thinking like a magician" in saying so.

If Marion's effect gets good responses for him, though, then good for him.
Joe Mauro
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Quote:
On 2009-10-28 04:03, Andrew Musgrave wrote:
Honestly? Kenner's version has clarity, efficiency, and is a more pure demonstration of the core effect. And I honestly don't think that I'm "thinking like a magician" in saying so.

If Marion's effect gets good responses for him, though, then good for him.


Do lay people look for clarity, efficiency, and pure demonstration of the core effect when watching a coin trick? That sounds what a magician watching a demo looks for.

I'm suggesting that laypeople, looking at the two effects, would not discern a difference and the above routines would garner similar reactions. This is not saying lay people are not observant, aware and smart. They are all of that.
~Joe
rannie
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I second that Joe!

Rannie
"If you can't teach an old dog new tricks, trick the old dog to learn."

-Rannie Raymundo-
aka The Boss
aka The Manila Enforcer

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RamonT
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Quote:
On 2009-10-28 06:06, Joe Mauro wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-10-28 04:03, Andrew Musgrave wrote:
Honestly? Kenner's version has clarity, efficiency, and is a more pure demonstration of the core effect. And I honestly don't think that I'm "thinking like a magician" in saying so.

If Marion's effect gets good responses for him, though, then good for him.


Do lay people look for clarity, efficiency, and pure demonstration of the core effect when watching a coin trick? That sounds what a magician watching a demo looks for.

I'm suggesting that laypeople, looking at the two effects, would not discern a difference and the above routines would garner similar reactions. This is not saying lay people are not observant, aware and smart. They are all of that.


I could not agree more with this post, it's just right on the nail.

Ramon.
harris
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Effect

Effect

Effect

Effect

Effect

Effect

and

of course the old...

KISS principle

comes to mind for this nearly normal coin guy.

Harris

still 2 old to know everything....
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Mr. Mystoffelees
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I agree with Andrew- the clarity stands out...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
Joe Mauro
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Their patter is different of course. Watch them both with the sound turned off. It's very interesting.
~Joe
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One of my favorite stage manipulators is David Sousa. His magic is slow and deliberate. His effects pure and uncluttered. The magic is clear. Mr. Sousa has thought long and hard about the effect he wants to achieve in the minds of his audiences, and has created what he feels to be the best way to acheive that end. And his magic is better for it.

To bring this back to coin magic, while expensive, Kenner has also thought long and hard about the effect he wants his audience to see and has developed a sophisticated gaff that unclutters the effect, making what the LAYMEN see clear, magical and visually impossible. It leaves them with no way to reconstruct how the effect happened. With MOST sleight of hand versions of the plot, the handling telegraphs the method, and the magic suffers for it. We have a plethora of tools we can use to decieve our audiences. Why limit ourselves with the purists mantra -no gaffs?

I don't own a set of these coins, only because I haven't found a routine I can use them in, aside from the 3fly Kenner demos. However, I don't think we should settle for the lesser product just because it's cheaper. As a consumer, you always have the option of buying 1-ply toilet paper, but why would you want soiled fingers?
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magiclee71
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Quote:
On 2009-10-28 03:25, Joe Mauro wrote:
Watch Mr. Kenner's new $800 gaff coin trick

http://www.coingaffs.com/SuperFly.html

and then watch this $12 trick from Mr.Boykin:

http://www.vinnymarini.com/download/myfly.html

From a layman's perspective, does it matter? Perhaps a professional coin worker can critique and discern a difference, but can a layman?

When a gaff can do a trick that cannot be accomplished by sleight of hand and an extra coin, then I'm all for them. In this case, why bother with an expensive gaff.

Thoughts?

~Joe




Isn't it a 2 way street though? Doesn't or shouldn't the performer get the same satisfaction and enjoyment if not more than the spectator. Maybe for some performers having a nifty gaff helps accomplish that feeling of satisfaction when performing. I see 2 angles here. There are some that get a kick out of creating magic without gimmicks and then there are those that get a kick out of creating magic with gimmicks. In my opinion we should look at the complete package. To truly create magic the spectator AND the performer should feel it.
lithyem
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3Fly the effect is 3 coins traveling from 1 hand to the other "invisibly" - Marion's does not do that. 2 coins go from left to right then he places the 3rd on the right hand then one flies back to the left, and another, then places the 3rd back to the left - then one flies across again and back. Kenner's goes 1-2-3 from left to right. From a laymen's perspective the difference is in clarity - one effect shows coins going seemingly at random from hand to hand and the other shows 3 coins invisibly traveling from one hand to the other in order.

Leavig the mechanics of the effects aside since it really and truly is irrelevant - I think Vernon would remind us that clarity of effect is paramount. 3Fly is a clear effect (although muddied by many performers) while MB's is not incredibly clear - albeit entertaining I'm sure.


To be fair here I do the exact same routine/effect with 4 coins or SuperFly. My handling of SuperFly (while different from Kenner's) shows open hands, open palms, nothing to hide and my version of 3Fly wish 4 coins has identical displays except for 1. The gaff is nice because it lets me concentrate a bit more on the presentation and openness but for all intents and purposes I tend to prefer straight coins when possible...
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Effect!

Harris
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Eric Jones
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Quote:
On 2009-10-28 06:06, Joe Mauro wrote:

Do lay people look for clarity, efficiency, and pure demonstration of the core effect when watching a coin trick?


Yes, in a sense they do, but of course this isn't limited to coin magic. While laymen may not have a clue as to HOW you're doing your thing, they can certainly pick up on "something" taking place. The ONLY difference between you and your audience is that YOU know how the trick works. That can change by flaunting the "secret" in their face too many times. Lots of "magicians" don't give their audiences enough credit. They sense tension, they can sense when you're trying to direct their attention away from something tricky, and they can certainly understand when an effect is clear. Clear presentations and methods are what the classics are all about. Cups and balls, coins across, ambitious card, linking rings. All CLEAR plots.

In three fly, I promise you they suspect a 4th coin no matter how clean the handling. The way to counter this is to cancel that method out in both presentation and technique. Kenner's handling and most gimmicked handling address this issue, while very few sleight of hand 3fly effects do. by causing one coin to fly back and forth, not only are you cluttering the effect for no reason, you are waiving the secret in their faces repeatedly, increasing the chance of your spectator figuring it out.
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Mb217
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Interesting string and never thought in my wildest dreams to be in anyway compared to Chris Kenner or at least our works.

I would say that in this "My Fly aka Grandpa's Coins" package I give 3 variations of the effect and there is a classical version where the coins go one way for the conservatives. Smile My take goes both ways and telling from specs I just did it for last night in Denver, it works very well. So I don't know but I'm just saying...

In my download I actually applaud Chris Kenner feverishly and speak to all the many ways the effect can and has been done. I'm not the first to go both ways with this, check Daryl's 3 Fly III. Now I'm no Daryl and truth be told neither are most of you but I do feel that what I did has merit and absolutely does work and amazes, which it was designed to do. My friend Eric Jones points basically as to the differences between a Mustang and Masserrati here, albeit in a curious sort of way with the toilet paper analogy. Not sure about all that but then again what are friends for. Smile

I have no problem with people that use gaffs, I prefer not to but I can use them about as well as the next guy...They are actually made so that every Magic Michael can do the effect, it certainly makes it easier, which is what it's designed to do and Kenner did that pretty well with his Super Fly. My effect is hundreds and hundreds of dollars less, I'm sorry about that. Smile But it was aimed toward teaching people the effect at a reasonable cost and giving some interesting new ways to deliver it. I think it did that moreso than not.

Finally everyone has their opinion on what magic is and should be and I respect that but in the end it is the spec that should walk away in amazement. I have fun doing all things I came up with and many things I've learned from others so I enjoy it all through and through and I pass all that along to the specs for final approval. What you guys think has some relative importance to be sure because you are practitioners but ulitimately what's important to me is the amazement the spec feels when he watches me do my thing. My goal is to perform magic and the larger, largest response overwhelmingly says that I done good. So not for nothing but I'm just saying....And thanks to all those that like the effect or found something of worth in the small package and thanks also to all those that thought otherwise, it's all good. Smile
*Check out my latest FlySki , Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at www.VinnyMarini.com Smile

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lithyem
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Quote:
On 2009-10-28 13:05, Mb217 wrote:

I have no problem with people that use gaffs, I prefer not to but I can use them about as well as the next guy...They are actually made so that every Magic Michael can do the effect, it certainly makes it easier, which is what it's designed to do and Kenner did that pretty well with his Super Fly.

I can't say that I agree there - I feel that gaffs should only be used to achieve something not possible with pure sleight of hand rather than to bring an effect into the hands of the everyone. If you can't handle coins you certainly won't be able to handle a shell or a flipper. In this case SuperFly gimmick lets you show very open positions that you otherwise could not - simple as that. It does not improve the effect - only changes the presentation. SuperFly in the hands of a hack would be a mess as would 4 coin 3Fly...
Open Traveller
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Quote:
On 2009-10-28 06:06, Joe Mauro wrote:
Do lay people look for clarity, efficiency, and pure demonstration of the core effect when watching a coin trick? That sounds what a magician watching a demo looks for.

I'm suggesting that laypeople, looking at the two effects, would not discern a difference and the above routines would garner similar reactions. This is not saying lay people are not observant, aware and smart. They are all of that.

Lay people don't look for those things in the sense that you mean them, and they probably wouldn't know what you meant if you trotted out the words, but those things deeply affect what the lay person sees to the point where they determine the quality of the performance.

You suggest that laypeople, seeing both versions, would not discern a difference. I disagree, and strongly believe that given the benefit of comparison, a lay audience would immediately discern a large difference. By your suggestion, any version of ThreeFly where the method fools should be just as good as any other, since laypeople can't tell them apart anyway. We know, though, that the very idea is poppycock, and some ThreeFlys are very, very good while others are downright terrible. The reason we can grade them as such is specifically because laypeople can discern the difference.
Joe Mauro
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Some people are not good coin handlers, so it doesn't matter if it's gaffs or not, the work doesn't look good. Lay people know when something is entertaining or looks bad or doesn't make sense. Coins, cards, etc. Bad magic is bad magic.

The video clips we are discussing, I feel are excellent. And I also believe lay people would feel the same way and would be equally entertained by them in person.

Will we ever really know? I guess unless Mr. Boykin and Mr. Kenner appear in public and perform for non-magicians, we won't. But it makes for an interesting discussion.

I don't know either gentlemen, but I admire their work. Also,I'm a hobbyist and don't perform. I'm still a layman in many ways and I enjoyed both video clips,which prompted me to start this discussion.
~Joe
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Well, you could take their two videos, load them up on your laptop, Airbook, iPhone, iTouch, iPod, Blackberry, smartphone or whatever is at your disposal and hit the streets. Show them around and ask people -- non-magicians -- which they like better. Don't qualify the question, just...which is better? You may expect it would come in at about 50/50. I think a clear bias would present itself.

I'm.
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Sayin'.
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With all respect to MB I would suggest comparing the Kenner Gaff to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfgwY5HQ5Ug. Is there a 600 dollar difference here?
In all fairness most cannot achieve this degree of proficiency with what appers to be an ungaffed version.
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There's no doubt that Kenner's version is very clean. I personally, would not spend 600-800 dollars for 3 Fly. I'm sure there were a lot of costs in manufacturing, etc. But for that kind of money I could buy Kenner's book, Roth's book, pretty much all of Roth's and Rubinstein's and Gallo's videos, Kaufman's book, and Bobo! Instead of one coin set designed to be used for one effect (though I'm sure it has utilitarian applications), I would have a complete library on on coin magic that would enable me to do hundreds--thousands--of effects, even if I didn't have this particular gaff with me.

Is the effect clearer than Marion's un-gaffed version? Yes, I think it is. Is it so much better as to warrant another $788 of my hard-earned money? Not even close.

Finally, did Kenner get Jimmy Snooka's permission?
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn (Finally a daddy!) @ScottFGuinn
Joe Mauro
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Lol. I doubt I'd go so far as to take a laptop around and show people the two clips. It could be 50/50 or more in favor of another. But what I'm suggesting is that these effects done live would garner similar reactions. Based on that, would someone prefer to spend $800 instead of $12.

Those that say Mr. Kenner's video is clearer, is that based on the patter? If so, the patter can be changed in Mr.Boykin's trick to better suit the performer.

Someone mentioned that the audience always suspect extra coins when 3 Fly is performed. John Mendoza, who is a professional Magician and seems to buy any 3 Fly version that comes out and reviews them, says that that Mr' Kenner's version can't be handed out. That's a big consideration when making a purchase. If it can't be handed out, is it worth $800?
~Joe
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I wouldn't pay $800 for the new Kenner effect. I also wouldn't on the other end of the spectrum pay $12 for Marion's.

The best version was $300 for Bob Kohler's because it is incredibly clear, clean, magical, and practical. I have yet to see any version that offers anything better and solves the most problems than U3F. Period.
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The Burnaby Kid
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Quote:
On 2009-10-28 06:06, Joe Mauro wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-10-28 04:03, Andrew Musgrave wrote:
Honestly? Kenner's version has clarity, efficiency, and is a more pure demonstration of the core effect. And I honestly don't think that I'm "thinking like a magician" in saying so.

If Marion's effect gets good responses for him, though, then good for him.


Do lay people look for clarity, efficiency, and pure demonstration of the core effect when watching a coin trick? That sounds what a magician watching a demo looks for.


Audiences in the movie theater might not care about a lot of the terms writers use to describe important concepts in story construction, but those concepts, well studied and implemented, can give them audience a better overall experience. Not every music fan understands meter, scales, pauses, etc. but that doesn't mean they'll respond well to musicians who just do random things with those concepts. There's often more than one way to implement these concepts well, but that does not mean that ANY way of implementing those concepts is as good as any other.

Dai Vernon made the point that a good effect is one that can be explained clearly. There's a big difference between "Three coins jumped from one hand to the other" versus "Three coins were jumping around all over the place".
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From an overview perspective, we should all say a few words at Thanksgiving for choices. Marion offers a fine 3 fly at an unbelievably affordable price for those of us on a budget. That routine needs no apologies.

To the other side of the room. Chris offers the Mercedes 3 fly, with a Schoolcraft gaff for those with the funds and desire. Money no object, this would be fun to have just to rub.

Lots more choices in the middle. I use Daryl's 3F3 and get really good reactions.

I can not understand what is wrong with options these days. For me, viva la difference!

Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
Jonathan Townsend
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I'm still partial to the Copenetro for formal or parlor work.
Add to that the Kennedy Visible Coins to Glass
And a nifty gaff to take the work out of making the coins vanish from one's fingertips...
And there's something of a progression in conditions and distance that appeals.

IE start in the hands and then introduce a glass and finish with the Copenetro (might want to build that into a book or your table though ) Smile
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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I was discussing this same issue with a friend earlier today. We can't see the point in spending so much money for the gaff that essentially looks the same as the original. My handling (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEfaD58ATqI) essentially looks the same as the expensive handlings, is clean, and doesn't cost me the large amounts that some of the other gaffed handlings do. I truly can't understand all of the expensive handlings being released, when they don't really clean up any of the problems in the routine. If the first coin transfer hasn't been fixed and the final coin vanish hasn't been fixed, I don't know if they're really worth it. Really, U3F and CFWM have both solved the final vanish, so these other, expensive handlings are a step backwards.
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Desmond67
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I make the 3 fly routine with the new T.U.C of Tango Magic, it's really easy and clean
mystre71
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Wouldn't it be better to compare Super Fly with Kenner's 3 Fly from his book?
harris
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For me, I like the Bejeing (or The Goblet) from Kam.

It is 3 flyish...but uses a different effect.....



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Mb217
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WOW! What a discussion and who would'a thunk it? Smile And I see people really like my saying, "...I'm just saying." Smile

I tell'ya, I'm just glad to be here. Smile Seems like these other 3 Fly'ers are regarded as so much more and I'm just here in the race peddling my unicycle as fast as I can. Smile Actually I do start my effect with 1 coin and not the usual 3, that seems different in itself that I have seen. Again, I never said that what I did was the best or anything like that and I recognize that people like it this way & don't like it that way but I just presented it my way, and I can't really think of what other way I could've done that.

I do think that whether you do 3 Fly gaffed or not is a personal choice and not to be downplayed whichever way you choose to do it. The only requirement is that it should amaze. If it does that then it's good, simple! I see where it was said that neither my take on it or Kenner's take on it is optimum, but a $300 take is what's best. I'm just glad to be in the conversation and be an impetus to raise further discussion on the matter because that's how things truly progress, from the big and small. *And incidentally JC, I like your vid, very well done. Smile

Ultimately again I think it comes down to the specs and what they think about it. I mean, I wouldn't think any of you guys would watch this with laymen around and amidst all their enjoyment and excitement say, "No wait, you're responding wrongly, you shouldn't really be amazed. If you just sit back and think about it you should have other questions." Or something crazy like that simply to make a point about something people don't care about. It's sorta like being a heckler that says that there's no such thing as magic, how could you believe that stuff when you know coins can't fly, etc. Smile I guess there's many levels to all this stuff and to all our varied ways of thinking about what we do and how we do it but ultimately we do it for others through our individual selves. So with that, I say "Do you." Smile

A great inspiration to me is Mickey Silver as there are many who don't like what he does or don't think much of it. But his moving a mental object in the way that he does is what was most motivating to me here with My Fly. I was thinking more of his work than anyone elses because what he does as to this looks more magical than anyone else's that I have seen. Mick mentioned once that many people told him early on what he was doing wrong, that he was confusing, his movements weren't magical, he was going to fast, remember what Vernon said, he was clown-like, all you're doing is a simple RV, what's the big deal, what exactly is it that he does?, etc., and he simply smiled, did his thing, took his bow and left everyone amazed that could see him, laymen and even magicians that know exactly as to how things are to be done...So I don't know, but I'm just saying... Smile
*Check out my latest FlySki , Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at www.VinnyMarini.com Smile

"Not much new under the sun I hear but under the moon, well who knows, that just might be a horse of a different color." -Mb Smile
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