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Paul Chosse V.I.P. 1955 - 2010 2389 Posts |
So the fact that other moves are just as bad (your own post above, acknowledges that this one, the pinky count, suffers the flaws I've noted, just as the classic pass, etc., do) means that we shouldn't address the problems with the pinky count? Is that what you are saying?
I don't see why you are so quick to defend a move that you admit has flaws, without trying to address the flaws and make the thing better, or acknowledge that it has limitations and figure out when it is most useful. To answer your question, I am addressing the problems with the pinky count because I have read several posts extolling its virtues, and I wondered if people were aware of the problems inherent in the move as it is usually done. If you have perfected the technique, I'm sure we would all appreciate you sharing your methods here. Thanks in advance for all your help... Best, PSC
"You can't steal a gift..." Dizzy Gillespie
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montz Special user 576 Posts |
Perhaps I'm not explaining my point...
Quote:
So the fact that other moves are just as bad (Your own post above, acknowledges that this one, the pinky count, suffers the flaws I've noted, just as the classic pass, etc., do) means that we shouldn't address the problems with the pinky count? Is that what you are saying? All moves have flaws. That is fact. The pinkie count is one of the most useful moves in magic. That is fact. It also has a lot LESS flaws than the other moves that I mentioned - for the reasons I mentioned. Quote:
I don't see why you are so quick to defend a move that you admit has flaws I admitted that ALL MOVES HAVE FLAWS. But the pinky count has a huge advantage when used secretly, as does every move... It is the MOST invisible way of getting a break. Not COMPLETELY invisible, as NO MOVE IS. Therefore it is the most useful way of getting a break, in terms of economy of motion. You need a break to perform a double lift, or classic pass, or double undercut. So it is not the useless move that your original post says it is. And the fact that you (think) you've seen every pinky count in the world is irrelevant. How many people riffling up the back of the deck to get a break have you missed? All I'm saying is that there is no need to just slam a move for the reasons of starting a popular post. Just opinions, Liam |
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Ian Richards Loyal user 226 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-06-26 13:09, pchosse wrote: I do not disagree with this. However, magicians have an inherent bias in the way that they view magical performances: Quote:
On 2003-06-26 13:09, pchosse wrote: Were you looking for the technique to the exclusion of everything else that was happening during the routine? |
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Paul Chosse V.I.P. 1955 - 2010 2389 Posts |
Liam,
I don't think that I have seen every pinky count in the world. I do think that you dismissing my views as irrelevant is typical of someone with nothing left to say. Ad hominem attack is the last refuge of a man with no argument - thank you for so clearly revealing yourself. Best, PSC
"You can't steal a gift..." Dizzy Gillespie
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dchung Special user Montreal 616 Posts |
Quote: If it was a fact, why would this be disputed? If it was as you say one of the most useful moves in magic, wouldn't everybody use it?
On 2003-06-26 14:51, montz wrote: Quote:
It also has a lot LESS flaws than the other moves that I mentioned - for the reasons I mentioned. All you said is that the other moves are "shocking." That doesn't sounds like much of an explanation to me. Could you clarify? And it is far easier to misdirect in the action of doing something else. This is for instance why there are covers for the pass (jiggle, riffle, dribble, turnover). Spreading the cards (as I mentionned earlier) and getting a break is pretty darn invisible to me if you have a reason to do so. As for the pinky count having a huge advantage when used SECRETLY, but how do you accomplish that? Quote:
It is the MOST invisible way of getting a break. Again, you state this as fact, please explain why it is the MOST invisible. Cheers, Derrick |
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montz Special user 576 Posts |
My pleasure... I have nothing left to say because I cannot stress what a good move the pinky count is in any other terms.
There is no need to bash it when it has no more flaws than any other move. And if you refer to your first email you state "I have never witnessed a performance requiring the use of a pinkie count, where I didn't see the pinkie count." I'm not trying to offend you, I just think that you are ignoring the benefits of the move... for whatever reason I don't know. Judging from your comments Ad hominem attack is the last refuge of a man with no argument - thank you for so clearly revealing yourself. I have offended you. I'm sorry that you take debate so seriously. To avoid any more ill feeling, I shall no longer post on this topic. Sincerly, Liam |
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Paul Chosse V.I.P. 1955 - 2010 2389 Posts |
Montz,
I don't have any ill feelings; I don't even know you! I was hoping you would offer some insight into how the move might be used without it being so obvious, or suggest some misdirective technique that covered the tells. Instead you chose to defend the move as if I were attacking it personally (First time anyone has anthropomorphized a move, in my experience!). Part of your defense was to attack me personally. What did you expect me to do, ignore you? At any rate, if you review anything I've written here, you'll find that my goals are to improve the quality of the magic we all perform and to offer some constructive critism when I think I can. I have no need to post a subject just to start a popular topic, as you supposed. There is plenty of controversial material to discuss already, without creating more needlessly. By the way, the "bashing" that you found offensive is exactly the same thing you engaged in when you profiled other ways of obtaining a break (see your own previous posts). How can you object to my characterizations of a move, and then engage in the same characterizations? This is, of course, all rhetorical, since you've said you'll no longer post on this topic! Perhaps someone else will pick up the gauntlet... Best, PSC P.S. If anyone is interested, we COULD try discussing ways to use the pinky count that are effective! You know, define the problems, look for ways to eliminate them, find moments that are conducive to the move, or directive techniques that put the move OFF the plot point and, therefor, out of mind as the spectator watches your performance. Just a thought...
"You can't steal a gift..." Dizzy Gillespie
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Ian Richards Loyal user 226 Posts |
As previously noted in this thread, there are a number of tells when the move is being used - increased tension in the left hand, in particular the left thumb as the left fourth finger pulls down to count the cards.
I currently use the Pinky Count in one routine that I perform. In the routine four cards are named one at a time from the face of the deck and are then turned face down onto the table. With the deck in left hand dealing position, the left hand then drops to the left side so that the deck is held at about a forty-five degree angle in the hand. The right first finger then spreads and counts the cards on the table indicating that there are four cards. During this right hand action, the left fourth finger Pinky Counts three cards. The left fourth finger is hidden behind the left leg while this occurs hopefully screening this action from view. All of the performers attention is on the four cards on the table. This misdirection during the Pinky Count works well for me. I believe that it is much more difficult to "successfully" execute the Pinky Count with the deck held horizontally in normal left hand dealing position. As noted in a previous post, no moves that are subject to close scrutiny should be done without proper misdirection. |
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Welshwizard Loyal user Wales 292 Posts |
The pinky count is extremely useful and far less noticeable than the back thumb count/thumb count or push over break. It's taught well is 'Steranko on Cards'.
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dchung Special user Montreal 616 Posts |
I'm interested in discussing how to do the pinky count effectively. One of the weaknesses I see in it is the visible tension of the hand. That's what I spot first when seeing somebody else doing it. As in Ian's example,I think this must be covered with an action in the other hand (such as counting, or the display of the card). For example, you could use it while displaying four aces and preparing for a Braue addition. In other words, the heat has to be somewhere else.
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ASW Inner circle 1879 Posts |
Holy moley, Paul. Did I do the move THAT badly on the video I sent you?
Time to go back to the woodshed... Andrew
Whenever I find myself gripping anything too tightly I just ask myself "How would Guy Hollingworth hold this?"
A magician on the Genii Forum "I would respect VIPs if they respect history." Hideo Kato |
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mike gallo Inner circle 1341 Posts |
Personally I have found that by holding the deck in dealing position and sleightly hooking your left index finger over the the right outer corner of the deck...and gently pushing inward...you can achieve the same as the pinky count but much faster and with much less notice. Also, one of the biggest defenses I have seen or heard for the pinky count is using it with a double lift. Well, aren't you adding a movement by doing that. First you are counting the cards...then you turn them over...once again, maybe it's just me...but I would rather put in the time and learn a 2 card or multiple push-off!
Mike |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-06-26 13:20, Pete Biro wrote: My understanding of the pinky count (from Darwin Ortiz at the Card Table) is that you're counting cards from the top of the deck, not the bottom. With the deck in your left hand your left pinky pulls down on the inner right corner and lets the required number of cards spring off (up), then holds a break under them. It is much like thumb counting top cards at the outer left corner. If I had to say anything about the pinky count it would be this: Don't fall off your horse and break the fifth metacarpal of your left hand. I did six months ago and my pinky count died; furthermore, having learned to use it in many routines I was forced to alter all of those routines with other techniques during the (long) healing and relearning process, which in ongoing as of this writing. |
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Dave Egleston Special user Ceres, Ca 632 Posts |
Quote:
your saying you can see darwin ortiz perform it? Not a great example We seem to have a couple of off the wall statements on the thread One stating "No move is invisible -- NO MOVE!!" We do realize that we're talking to Paul Chosse -- right? Another: "Don't give up on it so quickly" Refer to first answer/question As for the young man from England - Dude, It was question and statement from one of the world's top cardguy - inviting a debate and discussion on a move. You may have a technique Mr Chosse has never seen - I guarantee he'll be interested in your answer without an attack As for magical knowledge applied when watching a trick that you're familiar with: Ask Roger Klause to perform a trick you're familiar with. Dave |
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Geoff Latta Regular user New York 158 Posts |
Paul, I respectfully disagree, for the following reasons.
Yes, the pinky count crawls with tells when many people do it. But this is not because it's a bad move. If I thought it was, I wouldn't have used it as my primary way to obtain a break for the last, I don't know, maybe 30 years? The problem is that people tend to start using it before they're ready. It's a hard move to do at all when you start working on it, and people are so relieved when they can finally get through it consistently, that they start using it right away. That's what's wrong. People seem to think that because it accomplishes a relatively small thing (though it's not a small thing to me) that it doesn't require the work that something like the pass does. Of course, that's wrong. The amount of work required to perform a move correctly is the amount of work that will make the move deceptive. It doesn't matter whether one card moves a tiny distance, or half the deck is moved under the other half. If it can be seen, it's not done yet, and shouldn't be used until it is. Here are some things I've learned about the pinky count. Long after you are able to do it you have to actively work on it, just like the pass, because it requires great strength in parts of the left hand to do properly. If that strength is there, there is no visible strain in the hands, just as with the pass. the amount of time it takes to acquire the move in its basic form is a fraction of the time it takes to build the strength to do it correctly. By the way, the pass (left hand primary) is an excellent exercise for the pinky count, so that's a bonus if you do both. When it's done correctly, the card should move no more than 1/64th of an inch. Get out a ruler, guys and see how small that really is. This is not visible, unless the spectator's eyes are inches from your hand, and your hand is absolutely immobile, which itself would be unnatural. Even if the movement is as coarse as 1/32nd of an inch, the slightest normal motion (and I am not talking about waving your hands about, but a normal movement of an inch or so) will cover it completely. It is also possible to do it where the card does not move at all, the third finger holding the top card in place while the deck is bent below it with the little finger which then releases the second card to coalesce with the top card. This is the most difficult way, but cannot be seen by anyone, under any circumstances. People don't give the little moves the respect they deserve. I've seen guys riffle up the back to get a break and then do a perfect top palm. The top palm is seen as an "important" move, and difficult, so they work on it assiduously and neglect how they get into it. That's too bad. As for things like taking the top card into the right hand and getting a break in the left, that's fine if it's appropriate in that particular routine or sequence. It's a technique that's invisible to the mind, used properly. The eyes don't really enter into it. But a lot of times, it's not appropriate. How you get a break should depend on what you're going to do with it, and maybe, with what came before. That's why questions like "which pass should I learn?" miss the point. You should learn the one that's appropriate for the routines you want to do. You may have to learn more than one. As for Mike Gallo's statement about preferring to spend the time learning a good push-off, you know better, Mike. No matter how perfect the aligment or how natural and deceptive the action, it's not a good push-off if the get ready isn't invisible, undetected and unsuspected. Finally (aren't you glad) not all moves require misdirection. Some can be ruined by it. If I'm using a pass as a secret move, say, to control a card, misdirection may be appropriate. Maybe not. But if I'm using it as a colour change, it's disastrous. I am of course talking here about the kind of misdirection where you move their attention away from the move. There are other kinds. I practice the most basic moves every day, along with the "big" ones. The details matter. Vernon said "Magicians stop thinking too soon." I'd submit they also stop practicing too soon. Best, Geoff
"There is a thin line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line." --Oscar Levant
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bakerkn Regular user 121 Posts |
Mr Latta,
I interpreted Mr Chosse's message as a question, and you have quite eloquently provided your solution. Some of the usual "tells" of a pinky count are a vice like grip, visible tension, visible movement of the top cards, a noticeable pause within the routine, an adjustment from the "counting grip" to "regular grip"... The approach you describe (physical strength, practice, thought) would eliminate a number of these tells. What it seems to boil down to is technique and context. With regard to technique too many of us fall into the trap of thoughtless practice. It is no use practising the pinky count if it entails changing grips, wrapping your thumb and forefinger over the deck, visibly warping and bevelling the cards... This relates to all technique and is perhaps related to seeing the sleight as a end rather than a means. Using your example of the pass, many practitioners set out to achieve a rapid exchange of packets. Thus the technique they attain involves visible breaks, adjusting the position of the deck, finger movement, tension in both hands, finger movement... Practice must involve thought and honest criticism. As for context, a major advantage of one-handed techniques is that they can be done out of frame or under cover. Making a sleight invisible means choosing the appropriate sleight for the context and planning how to get into it. Again the key concepts here are thought and practice. I was very struck by your phrase "[p]eople don't give the little moves the respect they deserve." I know (honest criticism) that I am guilty of that! Regards Kevin |
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ASW Inner circle 1879 Posts |
Amen to all that, Mr.Latta.
Once you master the pinky count you can do it very quickly - for example as you go to scoop up some cards for an add-on - and in that context it's not detectable. You can do it as you hold the deck naturally at your side (ie against your pants leg if standing) as you patter. Again there is nothing to see. Or as the hand is resting naturally on the table top (if seated). I also do it right under people's noses as I gesture. I do this when I use the Roger Klause one handed turnover. In that context it's the perfect set-up: I mean it looks the way anybody would flip over a card with one hand. If you get set for that move by including your right hand then... why bother? By the way, I think Ortiz addresses the issue of magicians practicing the 'big' moves but neglecting the more routine (and yet equally important) moves such as get readies in Strong Magic. Darwin's comments in 1987 about top card guys getting breaks like rank amateurs still holds today. I know guys who can do Raise Rise beautifully but disdain the use of a pinky count. If you know how much harder the Kosby move is you'll see how ludicrous this attitude is. Cheers Andrew PS. I know Paul started this thread to spark some discussion, the 'old curmudgeon'!
Whenever I find myself gripping anything too tightly I just ask myself "How would Guy Hollingworth hold this?"
A magician on the Genii Forum "I would respect VIPs if they respect history." Hideo Kato |
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John Fitzgerald Loyal user London, England. 215 Posts |
Paul,
With all due respect. Can you perform a Pinkie Count? And have you used it in countless performances and stopped because laymen could see it? If you are so aware that there are tells and ways to cover them, then you should have no problem using it in performance with proper misdirection, should you? Andrew and Geoff and others have given us some good examples of misdiretion/covers and also the right attitude towards performing the move. Saying that the move is completely useless is, how can I put it? A completely useless comment. So, if you can't find a satisfactory way to cover the tells, then don't use it performance. I'm sure if Andrew and Darwin and others displayed the move so obviously then they wouldn't be full time professional magicians, because who (wanting to be entertained and amazed) would want to book a magician whos method/technique they can see? I think your intention in starting this thread wasn't to start an arguement about whether the Pinkie Count is useless or not but to start a discussion on how to cover the move with additional techniques/misdirection. And the reason it came accross so harshly is beacuse you felt that you have to take such an approach to get all the self deluded practitioners of the Pinkie Count to "wake up and smell the coffee". Some other covers that nobody has mentiond are, 1. Covering the inner right corner of the deck with a fan of four cards or cards held in a Biddle Grip in the right hand (similar to how they are held above the deck before you begin the Braue Secret Addtition) while Pinkie Counting. 2. Turning the hand over and pointing to the face card as in "Jackpot" from "Darwin Ortiz at the Card Table" (of course there has to be a reason for this, in this routine you place a jack on the bottom of the deck to prove you won't engage in any bottom dealing, with the other three jacks face up on the table and one jack on the bottom, the hand turns over while the other hand points to the jack and makes some comment (Pinkie Counting in the process). I think the arguement is one that will never be fully resolved (like all the others), so those who use the Pinkie Count, just make sure your technique is flawless and your misdirection is perfect to cover the move. And don't overuse it and use it where it isn't neccessary. For example, if you are placing a fan of four cards on top of the deck catch your break then. Don't square up and then Pinkie Count just because you can (of course there are exceptions, like when catching a break while replacing a card or cards on top will be too obvious. Like in "Lorayne's Ambitious Card Routine" from "Close-Up Card Magic" by Harry Lorayne, when you switch the positions of the two top cards so the two of hearts will end up second from the top, it would be a giveaway to hold a break then. You want to square up the deck as Lorayne suggests before you go into a Double Lift. But then a Strike Double Lift or a Push Off Double Lift would probably be better use in this context than a Pinkie Count. I never liked that part of the routine anyway; it's a giveaway no matter how well you do it in my opinion, and I mention it to show that there are exceptions). In other words, just construct your routines so as to hide every move you do. Take it easy, John. |
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Sean Macfarlane Special user 880 Posts |
I started working on the pinky count to help me in an effect of Larry Jennings "The General card." I still don't perform this effect publicly because I can't get the breaks deceptively enough for the up and coming changes. The way I see it is to do this effect deceptively the pinky count is necessary for two multiple turn overs. You get great cover while you do them during each revelation of the card.
I think that this effect is a great way to practice it; you can use the the joker that was changed into one of the selections to cover the deck as you show the change. I can only see the pinky count being useful in counting 4 cards...maybe 5 at the most. I watched Michael Vincent perform this effect perfectly and I didn't see him get the breaks with the pinky count. The revelations were so strong that it was perfect misdirection. Cheers. |
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John Fitzgerald Loyal user London, England. 215 Posts |
Sean,
"The Estimation Routine" from "Darwin Ortiz at the Card Table" is, in my opinion, the best exercise for practicing the Pinkie Count. You also have to count up to eight cards in the routine, as opposed to four or five. Take it easy, John. |
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