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Jonatan B Veteran user Gothenburg, Sweden 342 Posts |
This is just a question:
Wouldn't it be possible to completely cover the pinky count by just holding the deck in end grip (Acting like squaring the deck).
Jonatan Bank
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Marty_K New user 31 Posts |
I think it is Jonatan. I was going to post the same thing. I do that very thing. Also, just simply dropping your hand to your side as you address the spectator is enough time and cover. Chances are once you get a break under the selected amount of cards you’re going to do something with it, like transfer to a thumb break for some other move, or just do another move of some kind. No one is just going to pinkie count just to hold a break for the fun of it. Think about it. If you were going to pinkie count to get a break under 4 cards and double under cut them to the bottom of the deck it would make a lot more sense to have your hand already there covering the pinkie count and go imediately into a double undercut then to do a pinkie count in open view and bring your right hand up to take over the break. Talking about economy of motion. That's just my thoughts on it.
--Marty |
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Paul Chosse V.I.P. 1955 - 2010 2389 Posts |
Geoff, thank you for a terrific post! I was hoping to elicit exactly your type response. It is sometimes difficult to engage in conversation here beyond the "It's great!, I love it!, It sucks!" type feedback. Not all the time, mind you, but often. If my strident opposition to the pinky count was all it took to get the, mostly, measured and thoughtful responses this thread has drawn so far, I'll have to consider using the same approach again!
Which is not to say that I didn't mean what I said. I do see the move more often than not (Category One). There are exceptions to that. Usually people who have followed advice like you offer (Category Two). I was, as John F. put it, "trying to get them to wake up and smell the coffee...". Them being the folks who fall into category one. John - Yes, I perform using the pinky count. Not in countless performances, but certainly in uncounted ones. And no, I have not stopped using it because of spectators who could see it. When I use it, it goes unseen. You are correct. It was my intent to bring attention to the fact that many sleights are poorly executed, and that the performer is unaware of it, and fools himself into believing he is fooling his audience. If we recognize the Princes' nudity, maybe we can offer him some appropriate clothing. The pinky count happens to be a pet peeve, since it is, so often, so badly done. It could as easily have been the Double Lift, Two Card Turnover, any one of many Passes, Palms, etc. The goal is to work on fixing it! So far, the effort seems worthwhile. I like that we have: 1.) Defined some of the tells in this particular move... 2.) Suggested specific techniques to improve the pinky count specifically... 3.) Offered methods for misdirection, or shade, that can be applied generally... 4.) Discussed a philosophy related to practice, and the value of practice, correctly done... 5.) Discussed a philosophy related to the application of sleights and when/where they are more/less appropriate... 6.) Considered alternatives to the pinky count... Great stuff to ponder. Thanks to all who have contributed so far. I hope others will share their experience, and take something useful from the accumulated wisdom offered thus far - I have! Best, PSC
"You can't steal a gift..." Dizzy Gillespie
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mike gallo Inner circle 1341 Posts |
As for Mike Gallo's statement about preferring to spend the time learning a good push-off, you know better, Mike. No matter how perfect the aligment or how natural and deceptive the action, it's not a good push-off if the get ready isn't invisible, undetected and unsuspected.
Geoff...that is the beauty of a push-off (at least the one I do)...there is no get ready. For what is worth...I have known Geoff for a very long time...and I hate admitting this...especially in a public forum. But he is probably the only person I have "never" seen do a pinkie count...there...I said it...happy now Geoff? Mike |
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Geoff Latta Regular user New York 158 Posts |
Thanks Paul, I kind of figured (as others did) that you were up to something. Stirring the pot to see what's cooking. A lot of good stuff in this thread from different people. We ought to sell it for two bucks and split the proceeds. Ha.
Ahh, Mike, I thought you meant the Vernon push-off, which does require a break. I stand corrected. And the reason you "never" see me do the thing is I always make sure you've had one pint more than me when I do it for you... Best, Geoff
"There is a thin line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line." --Oscar Levant
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Lonnie Dilan Special user Canyon Country, California 823 Posts |
You gotta love the pinky count. It's so freaking useful. Any real card worker will know that the pinky count is a wonderful tool.
If your hand is tensing up then that means you are trying way too hard. Loosen up the grip and bevel the deck a bit. I practice pinky counting while I'm in the carpool or just watching television. PSC is probably mad because too many cards run off the pinky and he's having problems keeping them going at a decent rate. Practice man. |
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CWilcox New user California 70 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-06-27 19:51, Lonnie Dilan wrote: You're not serious, are you? CW |
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mike gallo Inner circle 1341 Posts |
Geoff Latta said:
Quote:
And the reason you "never" see me do the thing is I always make sure you've had one pint more than me when I do it for you... Geoff, two things I could never top you on 1) pinkie counting 2) pint counting...you were the best...I met my match with you on that! Mike |
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-06-27 19:51, Lonnie Dilan wrote: You obviously have no idea of who your talking to. Paul Chosse is one of the greatest Card Handlers in the world. Mentored by Jack McMillan, Charlie Miller & Ed Marlo he understands card magic to a degree most people will never attain. His work has been lauded by Jon Racherbaumer, Roger Klause, Mike Skinner, Bruce Cervon, and many more. This is one of my pet peeves with message boards-- people sound off without knowing who they're talking to or about. Gunney |
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
You are right there... Chosse = Chops of a degree seldom seen. Pretty close to Diaconis (who I still rate as the number one).
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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Paul Chosse V.I.P. 1955 - 2010 2389 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-06-27 19:51, Lonnie Dilan wrote: Lonnie, Thank you for the recommendations regarding practice. If I run into problems watching real card workers like yourself mangle a good move in the future, I'll practice watching you from a car pool with the television on. Maybe that will help! Best, PSC
"You can't steal a gift..." Dizzy Gillespie
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dchung Special user Montreal 616 Posts |
Thanks very much Geoff for your thoughts on the pinky count. If you're willing to share, I would love to know more about how I should be practicing it, including a reference to what you feel is a good/best description of the sleight. If I'm going to learn it, I might as well learn it right.
Cheers, Derrick |
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Marcus K New user Bay Area, California 96 Posts |
An interesting perspective (probably only interesting to me, but there you are)
Six years ago, I marched hard headedly into my magic shop and said "I want to get serious about card magic. Nothing too simple." Well, the kindly gentlemen in the room all exchanged knowing looks, and sent me home with a copy of Darwin Ortiz's "At the Card Table" video. I shortly realized that one can not see the top of the mountian when one is at the bottom of the ocean. I walked back in the magic shop 30 days later, bathed in sweat, wearing the same clothes I had left in, and gave possibly the worst presentation of Darwin's "Wild Card" ever seen by civilized man. (assuming uncivilized men sit around the fire doing the wild card for each other) The kindly gentlemen in the shop (strangely enough, wearing the same clothes they were wearing when I left them) said "That was terrible... except for the doubles at the beginning... sit down." Ahhh, truly magic words to hear at the beginning of your journey into magic; I sat down. Point is, I have been doing the pinky count since day one, and this thread is the first time I have ever really thought about it as visible at all. It is true that tension is needed by the thumb at the outer left corner, but this should be so slight as to not be visable as a tell. Your grip on the cards should look completely normal. Second, the only thing visible about the count at all is the small snap up of the first card's back right corner... the rest of the count is completely invisible. This small snap is so slight that a small rotation of the wrist (maybe an inch or two) is all that is needed to make it an "in transit" move. With practice, you can make the first card "ride up" your pinky slowly, so there is no real movement there at all. After two years of practicing a couple of hours a week, I could count 20 cards consistantly. And if you are out there wondering what possible good this could do you... well, sit down.
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
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Geoff Latta Regular user New York 158 Posts |
Derrick,
I don't know what's best for you, but I'll tell you how I practice it. By itself, followed by a Vernon push-off and double lift, and followed by a multiple top palm. One big thing is to continuously try to reduce the bevel of the pack as much as possible; that's one of the big tells on the move. When you have the requisite strength in your fingers, you'll be able to do it with a light touch and no visible pressure. Best, Geoff Marcus, That slight pop can be reduced to almost nothing, or completely eliminated if you follow the advice in my earlier post. Best, Geoff
"There is a thin line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line." --Oscar Levant
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Doug Peters Special user I have a life, so I only have 591 Posts |
Wow! Geoff Latta telling us how he practices: the Magic Café rocks.
As far as pinky counting goes... Any counting, overt or covert is often correlated with second-tier magic. Same with dealing and spelling. (typically "card table demonstrations" can be considered distinct from "card magic"). There are exceptions, of course. The primary one being the double-lift get-ready that Geoff alludes to two posts up. If you disagree with the previous paragraph, please either allow your pet counting routines to be one of my exceptions (including Derek Dingle's Miracle Mental Spell -- for spelling, and OOTW -- for dealing). Even better, perhaps folk could mention their favorite routine requiring a pinky count. cheers, Doug
"if you have any answers, it's time to ask harder questions!"
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dchung Special user Montreal 616 Posts |
Thanks Geoff. I appreciate the help.
Cheers, Derrick |
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dmk_kirkland Loyal user 256 Posts |
When I starting getting back into magic, I quickly ended up searching for a good double lift technique. I came across a lot of different methods and opinions. The method I decided to learn for getting a break was the pinky count. After developing the muscles for this I also found out that the first card does flash (for me), there was tension in the hand, and the deck was bevelled. For a double lift the get ready can be done very quickly, and since I usually perform standing, could also be done when the hand is at the side (by the leg), under the cover of a gesture or comment.
Geoff has addressed a lot of these concerns about the pinky count. I might suggest something that I've been playing with. To eliminate the first card movement - try counting at the second card. In other words the first/top card isn't counted - you just start the pull down at the second card. It does require a touch, and I've only just started playing with it. I was interested in the pinky count because it appears to be extensible, more so than the multiple push off. The pinky count can be used for a number of cards (I don't use it that way). The multiple push off appears, to me, to be more difficult with 3 or more cards. It's hard for me to say since I haven't invested as much time in it as Mike Gallo.
Cheers,
David |
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Paul Chosse V.I.P. 1955 - 2010 2389 Posts |
There is a method for getting a break under one or more cards with two hands. It consists of bending the deck down at the front and back and letting the cards pop off the left fingers under cover of the right hand. there is a more detailed description in one of Ron Bauer's pamphlets. I forget whose original technique it is - perhaps Vernon's. At any rate, it inspired the following: the idea of covering the deck with the right hand in a squaring action as you release the cards you need to break beneath with your left pinky. This is a disarming and tell-less method that I have employed frequently. The very action of squaring give the impression of no control while it covers the control! It can also combines three actions - you square, you release the cards you need with the pinky during the squaring action, and at the conclusion of the combined squaring/counting, you immediately pick up the break and proceed with your turnover (IF you are using the technique to do a double or triple lift). That is one of the solutions I have found effective in eliminating the tension-tells from the pinky count.
Best, PSC
"You can't steal a gift..." Dizzy Gillespie
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Randy Loyal user Rochester, NY 261 Posts |
Paul
I believe the method of getting a break that you describe is Larry Jennings'
The Buffalo Get-Together - A Close-Up Magic Convention
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Paul Chosse V.I.P. 1955 - 2010 2389 Posts |
I'm pretty sure it's not Larry's - I will look it up and let you know tomorrow, but I would bet it predates him by several decades... My reference to Bauer's pamphlets was because it is the most recent description I can remember seeing, but I'm sure it goes back to the forties, before Larry ever touched a deck. Anyway, the point was that it was the inspiration for the cover action I'm suggesting for the pinky count, although it is an excellent method of getting a break under multiple cards on its own, and I have used it for years. Thanks for the reference, I'll check...
Best, PSC
"You can't steal a gift..." Dizzy Gillespie
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