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Oyama Inner circle Portland, OR. 1054 Posts |
We sit around and complain about exposure of our methods on the Internet, yet we continue to ask and give links to secrets on an open forum!
WTF! For those that care...I wont be in Penny, I am moving downstairs. Not sure why so many people are to lazy to scroll down and post their. I guess we really don't care about exposure.
"it's better to live one day as a lion, than a thousand years as a lamb."
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Jay Are Inner circle 4186 Posts |
Shamefully many here don't...
J
xxx
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Though posting 50 times on here to get access to the other area - its not exactly a hardship is it? though I do take your point...
I've asked to be banned
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StPaulMagician222 Regular user Saint Paul, MN (Cathedral Hill) 104 Posts |
Greeting Fellow Magus,
People would really need a DIRECT interest in Magic and Mentalism to find their way here. You too were once a CURIOSITY seeker. There are so many things demanding peoples attention these days that I think you would have to be real dedicated in finding out 'some secret' of our ART. I also do believe we could stay within our language of the ART and keep most of our correspondence within the secret sessions section when being more direct in method. I know I needed to go through making my 50 posts in order to gain access to the marketplace and 'secret' groups. I hope that my first 50 posts exposed my involvement in the art for 40+ years and that they were intelligent and informative. It really does take a bit of effort in making those first posts and laying your knowledge base, character and ethic's on the line for the greater community to see and decide exactly where in the pecking order one resides in this big house (Eugene calls) MAGIC. I for Fun and Curiosity have shown magic web sites like this one to neophytes and not having a basic understanding of the 7-13 principles of magic have no idea what we are talking about when we post on this site. I have also been told about feeling cheated when someone discovers a secret or a mage without honor shows the MO to a member of the lay community and the let down they feel when it is all spelled out in front of them. This was the hardest part of being a 'Shifter of Reality" to me. As every time I do an effect it has to have the freshness of happening for the very first time and your character as a magician needs to also feel that surprise and Wonder or you will never sell it to your audience. The majority of my friends while they might be in theatre they are not in Magic specifically and I don't know of one of them that has mentioned to me about googling any of my effects or even trying to discover how anything that I perform works...... Perhaps I have trained them that it really is about experiencing the Wonder and Magic of the Surprise. Many of the World's (and Magic's) secrets are written so large that only those that seek out it's meaning understand even though it has been sitting in plain view the whole time. I know sometimes I have to ask myself if I went Too Far in any of my posts. I know that it tickles our EGOs to think that hoards of people are spending there free time online trying to figure out magic secrets but I really doubt that - that is the case. k
"One can't believe in Impossible things" said Alice.
"I dare say" said the Queen, "Why when I was your age I believed more than 6 impossible things before breakfast. -Thru the Looking Glass- L.E. Carol |
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Oyama Inner circle Portland, OR. 1054 Posts |
I agree IAIN, but we don't have control over the post amount, we do have control over what and where we post topics.
St. Paul We have an option to post in an open forum and a closed forum, so many choose to ask questions and post links in an open forum. It just takes an extra second to scroll to the bottom and ask/post a link there. Why is Penny the place to be? Why not downstairs? Are we that lazy?
"it's better to live one day as a lion, than a thousand years as a lamb."
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Anansi Regular user 195 Posts |
I like your post StPaulMagician222.
Try putting 'learn magic secrets' or 'learn mentalism secrets' or even 'Sw**i' into Google. Those after quick fixes or answers will get them elsewhere. Granted, those hanging around 'Penny' will probably pick up a thing or two but they'd have to a) be a dab hand at Scrabble to deal w**h and p**k up on the Su**le use of Aste***ks and b) they'd have to hang around a fair amount and trawl through numerous previous posts to get context. It takes a bit of time to understand the rules and etiquette of this place and I for one, if I have a question, tend to PM an individual rather than post for fear of upsetting someone in the community for having the temerity to ask. It appears to me that those who do ask outright are promptly shown the door and those who inadvertently risk exposure are roundly told off and quickly apologise before going off double-quick time to apply themselves even more fervently to the study of careful placing of Ast**s*s I read an awful lot (it is always recommended), I'm performing more and more, I seek out knowledge, opportunities and experience and where I can, I try to help or give back in areas where I have useful information, or some skill or prowess. Where does this leave me? Under 50 posts, but happy to take my time. This also leaves me in 'Penny' for the meantime and I sure appreciate the fact that those in the know take the time to use this forum and to share where appropriate. Thank you all.
ars est celare artem
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jay leslie V.I.P. Southern California 9498 Posts |
I've had people sit in the back row, using their phone to look-up how tricks work while the show is in progress.
That's all it takes. someone who is interested, wants to bust you, thinks it's funny or whatever. They don't need to be dedicated, have great interest or care about ethics. People have the power to lurk this forum (or any other) at a moment's notice. My vote is A. when in front of an audience the names of effects will be altered B watch for those people so you can take their phone away and make it disappear until the end of the show. Keep the magicians code alive. Don't let the secrets fall into the wrong hands. It's not true that exposure has little effect, We had a nice thing going (80 illusions shows a year) until MM came along.
Jay Leslie
www.TheHouseOfEnchantment.com |
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Mind Guerrilla Inner circle Queens, NY 2670 Posts |
Did you ever notice that a secret never becomes sacrosanct until after YOU know what it is? I see no problem in posting to both areas of the Café as long as people keep the "in the know" questions/answers in Inner Thoughts. If you see an inappropriate post, report it.
StPaulMagician, I also like your post. Jay, what ever happened to "please shut off all cell phones"? Exposure has been going on since time immemorial (e.g. "The Discoverie of Witchcraft"). If someone is watching a mentalist perform but is busy trying to figure out the method instead of suspending their imagination and being entertained, whose fault is it? Even then, if the spectator later says, "Even though I know the method, your presentation was still awesomely entertaining," I see no reason for panic. As one of my ancestors said to Da Vinci after he painted the Mona Lisa: "A-ha! You used a BRUSH, didn't you?!" |
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Oyama Inner circle Portland, OR. 1054 Posts |
Mind Guerrilla
Then why don't you expos all your effects to the audience, then proceed with your performance? If it doesn't matter to you, why not? Some of the views I read here really make me sick to my stomach. Just look at that Labco thread! Pictures and links to the product. 5 pages of discussion on it. I am guilty of this as well. I think it is time for a change. Why is Penny more popular then that downstairs place? Simple question...why?
"it's better to live one day as a lion, than a thousand years as a lamb."
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Rocketeer Special user Westchester, NY 965 Posts |
To Jay Leslie,
Why would you ever use the name of a mentalism effect in your act? Are you printing up programs or something? To me a mentalism show isn't one trick after another like a magician's stage show. It's just a guy talking about unusual happenings and abilities and doing experiments to see if he can duplicate what he's done before or what he heard about or to see if he can do what others have claimed to do. It's a monologue (and dialog) with the audience, interspersed with practical demonstrations or experiments. I can think of at least one card trick whose name you can't ever mention because the name gives away the value of a card that was supposed to be random. Whether I've purchased an effect, learned it from a DVD, book or friend or invented it myself it's MINE as far as the audience is concerned. It's just what I do.
I'm selling my hardcover autographed limited edition copy of Jerome Finley's "Thought Veil"
PM me for info. |
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Davit Sicseek Inner circle 1818 Posts |
Quote:
Why is Penny more popular then that downstairs place? Amongst other things... You need 50 posts AND to be logged in to access Inner Thoughts. People post in Penny to get more exposure to their thread. They know that many people browse to board without being logged in, or without an account altogether. They want the most people possible to see their thread so that they get the best answers/the most exposure to whatever they are plugging. And of course they are lazy and hate scrolling. Personally I've solved that problem, I have Penny, Inner and Not Very Magical in my favorites and access those pages from there. It's very rare that I ever view the forum index.
Send me the truth: davitsicseek@gmail.com
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Keith Raygor Special user Naples, FL 968 Posts |
Oyama,
Twice now, in two hours, you've equated posting in Penny with laziness. If you want thoughtful, sincere answers to your questions, that is a difficult approach. Also, your confrontational pose of "Then why don't you expos all your effects to the audience, then proceed with your performance? If it doesn't matter to you, why not?", not only misunderstood Mind Guerilla's thoughts born of experience, but also didn't address the actual answers to your questions he attempted to give. 'Too lazy to scroll' is not even close to the reason Penny is more popular. Davit has provided you with several other real reasons that are thoughtful, and probably correct. The 50 post requirement is certainly an attempt at separating the divulgence of secrets, but to overlook something that obvious, and instead bring up the laziness of others hints to me that you're not as interested in a thoughtful discussion as you are in continuing your tradition of sententiousness. To quote you three posts up: "Some of the views I read here really make me sick to my stomach." I'd give you mine, but you haven't demonstrated a willingness to listen, and I've used up my space talking about you. I do know this - you have gained a lot of knowledge from your reading of material contained in Penny. As you decide to leave, must you question the others who stay? |
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Oyama Inner circle Portland, OR. 1054 Posts |
Maybe I am more concerned about the art of mentalism then you are Keith.
If you don't like the thread...don't post. Pretty simple Have I not responded to others thoughts in this thread? I guess I am listening! Did you notice how I tried to include MYSELF in this issue? Maybe you only read what you wanted to read? Have I responded to Davits thoughts YET? Nope. After your post, I actually don't really care about your opinion Keith. Davit You make really great points. I am always logged in, so that is never an issue for me. I can see how that is an issue for others though. Thanks to those for your thoughts and opinions. Thanks to those who left nothing as well.
"it's better to live one day as a lion, than a thousand years as a lamb."
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Dr Spektor Eternal Order Carcanis 10781 Posts |
Maybe we should make this a dime for your thoughts.
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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David Alexander Special user 623 Posts |
Is this a problem we need to concern ourselves with here or are dealers who upload their entire catalogs along with pictures and descriptions of props and devices of more concern?
They don’t use the Café euphemism “n**l w****r”. They use the words plainly and in the open. Google that term and you’ll come up with an astonishing 96,000 hits with six pictures of the device on the first page of results. Google any of the famous pros on the Café and you’ll be directed to their websites and their products, all available to anyone in the public with sufficient coin. Absent the commercial aspect are the thousands who upload "tutorial" videos on You Tube as well as the clowns who post "explanations" under performance-only YouTube videos. There is a mention on active thread here of a device used by many of us in professional work. Fractions of a second on Google with the device’s name and I was lead to the manufacturer who clearly explained what it was, how it was made, and how it could be used along with the price and ordering information. I’m not criticizing these folks as they have every right to earn a living. Being on the Internet and indexed by Google is necessary if they are to be competitive in today’s business world. Given the proliferation of magic/mentalism information readily available via Google and YouTube I don’t see where “going downstairs” on the Magic Café will in any way limit the dissemination of magic “secrets.” |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
We don't want EXPOSURE but we want to sell Secrets.
Therein lies the dilemma. I have no answer. Hmm...
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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MichaelCGM Inner circle Oklahoma City 2286 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-06-14 16:53, Oyama wrote: Why is Penny the place to be? Why not downstairs? Are we that lazy? For me, it has nothing to do with laziness. As Davit Sicseek pointed out, it’s takes no effort to bookmark Inner Thoughts. It makes almost no sense at all that you assume laziness as the reason. Perhaps you simply didn’t think it through. I read and post to Penny for two reasons. First, to learn from the experience of others who post here. Second, to offer those with less time in mentalism an opportunity to learn from my experience. How can one give back to the performing community if one considers oneself too elite to mingle with others seeking wisdom in the art? If it were not for the tremendous amount of help I received from seasoned pros posting to Penny, I wouldn’t have the success in mentalism that I currently enjoy. |
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TheGreatRaymondo Special user Manchester, England 969 Posts |
Pakar,
You summed it up in one! TGR
We are inclined to believe those whom we do not know because they have not yet deceived us...
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Oyama Inner circle Portland, OR. 1054 Posts |
Michael
Now you can head "downstairs" to get advice. You can always send a PM to the "newbies" who ask questions. They don't have to have the answer posted for all of us to see. Boy! People really hate the word lazy...I may have struck a cord with some? With all seriousness, let's just be mindful of people who are out their WORKING and making a LIVING with this stuff. That is not me, but I am going to try and make life a bit easier for the guys who are not hobbiest and part time performers. Most of these posts don't affect me. I am sure it affects MANY who do not post here. Thank goodness one of the threads I was talking about got moved! I guess my "rant" worked! Maybe one person who used that item can use it with confidence. Let's move past this thread and just try to be more mindful of our art. Aaron
"it's better to live one day as a lion, than a thousand years as a lamb."
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Jon Hackett Special user UK 737 Posts |
I don't understand how anyone who ever uses the Café thinks that non-magicians (there is no such thing as 'laymen' everyone knows something) would seriously read through all of the dribble that goes on here for 90% of the time.
I mean look at this thread, an important matter raised, and all most of the poster's have done is squabble and bicker about the word 'lazy'. And you think there are shadows looking over your shoulder? When I use the Café, I hope for help. I hope, that there are at least a few people, posting something that will shine the torch into the fog, and help me see through the blindness of too much. But, what if Oyama (Aaron) is correct? I for one have read a lot of his posts, and I think his opinion should be listened to. SO are we, by trying to help each other (is that we all doing?) individually, destroying the whole existence of our collective? Indeed the 'collective' or fraternity certainly does not exist in its form as it used to. A huge proportion of magi communication must happen here on the Café, and as I said, 90% of that is petty squabbling. SO what to do? Because even if I had the solution, it would only be you, those who dare to read, that would know?! All I can suggest is that which I know. My secrets, my way, is just that; a secret. I have a book. It is kept in shadows. I have read it. I have written it. No one else has. Polemic over. Good Luck Jon Hackett
It is not the brains that matter most, but that which guides them -- the character, the heart, generous qualities and progressive ideas. Doystoyevsky
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