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magic4u02 Eternal Order Philadelphia, PA 15110 Posts 
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MagicSanta: The only reason this happens is because there are WAY too many magicians out there that simply have no idea and no clue how to perform the illusion correctly. They also have no idea how to present it the way it was intended or create a routine that makes any sense. It is really sad but true. The illusion, when done well and correctly, will and does fool and entertain. Don't want to go off track on this thread, but wanted to chime in on this.
Sorry guys. Back to the topic. =) Kyle
Kyle Peron
http://www.kylekellymagic.com Entertainers Product Site http://kpmagicproducts.com Join Our Facebook Fan Page at http://facebook.com/perondesign |
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Christopher Rinaldi Veteran user 347 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-10-09 16:59, Al Angello wrote: B*llsh*t...all my magic comes from a magic shop or whatever...or at least most of my magic. Al (is that short for Albert?) I can do a whole show with stuff bought from local stores, but so what, who cares if one can do that or not, does an ego stroking be needed, whats up with all these bashing Café fricken regulars threads huh!? And Hacks...I'm Johnny the Hack whaddya want? And Wolf products, great or who cares, stop wallowing in self gratification all of you...and you know who you are because you whom I'm talking about know who I am and where I'm from soda speak. BTW I would hire anybody with a rubberband on their wrist. And buy your stuff from Frank Starsini Quote:
On 2010-10-10 03:58, Mary Mowder wrote: I wish there were more women here to balance us wingnuts out. Quote:
On 2010-10-10 18:16, magicgeorge wrote: And most importantly most everybody HERE thinks their sh*t don't st*nk! It's really no wonder why magicians are looked down upon by the rest of the entertainment industry...us petty bunch of thieves and hacks and arguing whacks. ;) |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts
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You WOULD hire anyone with rubber bands on their wrist?
Kyle loves his chair suspension...of course he works in an area where children are not bright and can't figure it out. I like you Christopher! |
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Christopher Rinaldi Veteran user 347 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-10-11 01:23, MagicSanta wrote: Kyle also wants to sound off on his chair suspension ebook thingy if my memory serves me right. Kudos to him and I hope he uses our capitalistic nature as Americans to sell it. I used to use it a lot (the chair suspension) as a selling point, even got me and my daughters picture in the paper with it and Frank Starsini said I looked like a rock star in the pic...cool huh? Anyways I do not use it much any more as most kids are just too dang rollie pollie, chubby man ya know what I mean. Imagine rolling up to a show, hoping to use your chair suspension and the kid just might roll right off the thing...too often this has happened to me and so I just put it away and barely use it anymore.And yes I can sell it MagicSanta and who cares if some folk know how it's done or correctly quess the modus operandi, it's still a good picture moment. It's just sad that one has to remind the parents to get their cameras and take pictures at the right moment while standing with that riduculus pose. |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts
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Are you near where Frank lives? Cool if you are.
Like stated if a comedy piece that is different, if someone thinks they are actually fooling someone the one being fooled is themselves, it does make for a good photo op. So, comedy and photo good, fooling, uh uh.....falling off bad. |
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Christopher Rinaldi Veteran user 347 Posts
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Are you serious Santa... have you ever owned a chair suspension and gotten to know your prop, have you perfomed it hundreds of times and created something somewhat logical?
For those of you magicians that have the prop already set up on stage I can say that is a stupid move and that setting the chairs suspension up in front of the audience is the way to go, one must be oh so natural in the act of setting up the whole prop. Now fooling folk...that is the monster we wrestle huh, for magicians that is the ultimate. I will admit there are times I screw the frick up man, really bad...sometimes quite often in a show. BUT WHO CARES I SAY!!! If one is a strong performer that doesn't rely on props and a solid adhenrence to a script than one should be able to conquer and divide, live and survive, make money and keep the wife happy, stay sane, anxiety free and be wise. I'm sorry but I must admit that fooling people is the least of my worries, it helps but I think I'm past the point of wanting to be an "All Powerful Magician" |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts
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Dang I like you more and more!
During chair suspension what magician thinks they are saying: "Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, I bring you a mystery of the highest order with the help of the guest of honor Susie who we all know is now seven years old. Here we have a board supported by two chairs, ordinary folding chairs just like you will find in schools and houses around the world. Susie let me help you up and mom be ready with the camera because when miracles happen you want to make sure you have evidence because you all are about to witness a miracle!...." What actually comes out: "Ladies and...uh, let me move this chair that spot is soft and....boys and girls we (clank clank) are going to miracle here....Susie how much do you weigh? Really? You might be okay....wait...let me....get the camera....here let me get you up, lay on the board and don't move and it may feel like it...lay here, no move over just a bit....can you keep your legs stuck out? Okay let me pull out this board and...darn....stay there....." pose for picture with idiotic grin and arms outreached. After effect: Susie to friends "There was a board under me" friends to Susie "no duh" |
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Christopher Rinaldi Veteran user 347 Posts
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Yup...and I'm selling my chair suspension for it has served it's purpose in the scheme of things.
$420 Jim Sommers version. |
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Happy Hank New user Winnemucca, NV 34 Posts
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There are a lot of unwell people here...I will pray for everybody.
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Christopher Rinaldi Veteran user 347 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-10-11 03:51, Happy Hank wrote: How many members are there here on the Café? I would pressume since most are so-called magicians that what you stated would be most obvious my friend, doesn't it feel nice when reality finally slams home to ya!? Pray mister man and pray hard for us sinners for as much backsliding as we do we know not what we spew but can perform uncanny double lifts just for you. Now I beg of you to repent of cheesy magic and be cool in what you do, pluck your nose and ear hairs for kids think that is crude, don't be hairy and scary dental floss is your friend, the older ya get the more you are D@MN3D. |
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Potty the Pirate Inner circle 4632 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-10-10 16:06, MagicSanta wrote: Unsurprisingly, you've completely missed my point, Santa. I'm referring to the dyamics of a show. You know, how to make it a roller-coaster ride instead of a lazy drive through magicville on a Sunday afternoon. In my opinion, it's vital that the performer doesn't hog centre stage all the time....in fact I prefer to constantly allow kids, puppets, props, and bits of business take the attention off me. My dialogue varies from manic panic to a hushed whisper. By offering variety, (and that includes a couple of big, colourful props), kids are more completely engaged. Of course, as we all agree, it's the WAY you present your show that is the litmus test. Obviously, Santa's going back to the old stuck needle: "big props v flat-pack". We know it's up to the performer to make his own choices. It mystifies me that there may be those who wouldn't know how to present an effect using big props. You can see the kids' eyes light up when they see something like Wolf's Flea. You have something exciting to show them, unlike they've ever seen before. For a few minutes you will join them in having fun with this crazy prop. And after the show, although the performer played second fiddle to the antics of the Fleas, your audience will remember and love YOU for being the one who showed it to them. Funny, because this is exactly what I used to love about magic shows when I was a kid. Getting back on topic, in my opinion, the best way to develop and learn is to use ALL the tools available to you, never assume that there is a "best" way to learn. There is no "best", just varying standards of excellence. Potty  |
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Flymo Regular user 151 Posts
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Looks like another "who's got the biggest wand" thread.
I must admit, where I live (Melbourne, Australia) I haven't really seen many performers using big name props such as Wolf Magic (I realise Wolf isn't being targeted specifically, but just for example) so perhaps I am not as jaded, but are there really that many performers around who do this? I ask this as a genuine question because it seems to really cause a lot of controversy on this forum. Al, I like the concept you put forth in your original post. With respect, I must say I think your phrasing could be better. I don't think it's fair for you to state what constitutes professional and amateur based on a quick check with your magic friends. Perhaps more experienced performers tend to strive for creativity and originality. However, I think this is all fairly irrelevant. Instead of dwelling on this, why don't we make use of this thread by discussing your original premise; using books (or as mentioned by others, non-magic related materials) to develop original routines and material. I think this is a great idea and could potentially be a very useful thread to us all. In the end, what is it that really counts; the judgment of our peers or of our audience? This isn't to say that we shouldn't strive for originality but for the right reasons. On another note, I wish I could find somewhere to store this 20ft wand. *sigh* |
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Ken Northridge Inner circle Atlantic City, NJ 2393 Posts
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Congratulations Al, you’ve figured out a clever way to bring up the pack flat vrs. big prop debate once again! Fine, count me in.
To keep a group of children entertained under any and all circumstances, I don’t discount anything. Big colorful props? Absolutely! I think what you fail to recognize is that some people are just not gifted at creating original effects. I’m very glad there are people that create new effects, because I get to stand on their shoulders when I entertain children. There is no shame in this, as long as you have either purchased the effect or have been given permission to use it. As far as your distinction between amateur and professional, I have to disagree and find very little correlation. David Copperfield will very often buy an effect from an inventor. Many top pros will turn to non-original effects. Likewise, there are many hobbyist that can’t afford the big props and books are all they have. Then there is our friend Marc DeSouza. What category do you put him in? An amateur with great talent and owns every prop and book known to the magic world!
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
www.KenNorthridge.com |
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Mr. Pitts Inner circle David Pitts 1058 Posts
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It's all good. I like to learn from books and non-magic resources myself, I'm old fashioned that way. But, I'm not opposed to a little bit of store-bought stuff in the show too, and I do enjoy watching magic DVD's, they're just not my first choice for developing material. I think it may be similar to my prference for always reading the book before I see the movie. I want to visualize my own version before I see someone else's interpretation.
I get laughter, oohs & aahhs and positive comments from both kinds of things in my act, that's what I have to go on. Personally, as an artist, I like it better when they like my original ideas more, but sometimes they like the Coloring Book best. What am I gonna do, take it out because it's not 100% mine? As I develop the act (and I continue to do so) I do add new stuff and replace things a little at a time, but some things have kind of stuck around even though they're not my personal favorites. I keep them because they fit, move the act forward and continue to be enjoyed by the audience. This has inspired a lot of discussion, good topic Al. |
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harris Inner circle Harris Deutsch 8812 Posts
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From a schtick with a stick...(adapted from Jonathan Winters) ...to a squaring the circle...my show is based on manuscripts, books, simple props (at time decorated with duct tape) and lots of music.
The most important (or one of the most) know your audiences, and make the connection....through laughter, fear, surprise, amazement....love...(my wife calls me on the extension line..(during a rope trick) and says she loves me...stage whisper...the mushy kind? Thanks for the food for thought..... The main difference between the two...may be their Business skills, motivation, time, desire to enter the profession full time. Yes it is show BUSINESS. Harris still 2 old to know everything.... on my reading table...if it fits sleeve it...along with a 2 foot stack of old old magazines...with a few newer ones like Funny Paper.
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com music, magic and marvelous toys http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u |
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jackturk Elite user 463 Posts
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From a simple man...
A pro is someone who gets paid. An amateur is someone who doesn't. Quality doesn't factor into that definition in the least. It does, however, affect how long those checks will keep coming... As for me, I learn, puzzle, adjust, create, edit, devise, aspire, fold, spindle, mutilate from any and all points of inspiration - specific media involved is irrelevant. --J
"59 Ways To Recession Proof Your Entertainment Business -- FREE!"
http://www.GetLeadsLikeCrazy.com "How To Make $25,000 a Year Doing Birthday Parties Part-Time" http://www.magicmarketingcenter.com/birthdayPT |
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LMLipman Elite user Falls Church, Va. 443 Posts
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Al’s original contention that most professional magicians perform magic out of books and most amateurs perform from store-bought magic got me thinking about my own show.
I consider myself a professional—I’ve been doing birthday shows for the past decade—although I mostly perform on weekends. But I do Fraidy Cat Rabbit and Run-Rabbit-Run (not in the same show, obviously) and have for years because the trick is a killer. Do other kids’ magicians do them in my area? I have no idea, but I’ve never had kids say “Oh, I know that one,” when I pull out the prop, so I have to assume the answer is no. Does that make me an amateur, I don’t think so. For what it’s worth, here’s where I got my typical show’s material. Most of it comes directly from magicians whom I’ve seen lecture: * Silks tt, dye-tube, crystal tube—Routine based on Duane Laflin DVD; TT&dye tube from magic store; crystal tube bought at Kidabra * Flower bug (replaced blooming flower)—Given to me by a fellow magician who bought it at Target. The bug comes up out of the flower the same as the blooming flower. * Paint my flower—Bought from Duane Laflin after a lecture * What’s Next—originally given to me by an elderly magician who was cleaning out his stuff. After a decade I bought a new one from a magic shop. * Wizard hat tear and mouth coil—bought from magic shop. This routine uses a lot of different wands including one bought directly from the late Warren Stevens and several from Silly Billy. (No breakaway wand!) * Tortoise/hare—Bought from Trixie Bond after a lecture. I’m now on my third or fourth prop because they wear out over time. Uses nesting wands bought from magic store. * Fraidy Cat Rabbit—see above * Sponge bunnies—Originally bought from magic store. Bunnies recently bought from Frank Starsini (thanks, Frank) * Professor's nightmare—Developed routine from Birthday Magicians’ Handbook * PB&J—Bought from Dave Risley after Kidabra lecture. This routine is probably the best in my show. * Strap tube—Bought from Bruce Bray after Kidabra lecture * Chocolate surprise—Bought from whoever was marketing it about a decade ago. * Mismade flag—Flags bought from magic shop; routine based on Silly Billy’s book & DVD. * Sal—My big grey monkey puppet bought at Kings Dominion before I got into magic. Having gone through that exercise, I realize most of my magic comes from other magicians. The performance has been honed by years of doing it, watching DVDs, reading books such as (David Kaye) Silly Billy’s Seriously Silly and working on the routines at IBM, SAM and a small monthly magic group I belong to. I applaud Al’s suggestion, however, that the next time I’m looking for a trick, I should go to my shelves of magic books and start there first. The material will still come from other magicians, but it’s very good advice. Larry Lipman Lorenzo the Great! |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts
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You are fine. What Al is missing and also some of you is most of the effects that are props ARE from books only you were expected to make them yourself decades ago. You can make up most of them now if you have the time and skill but buying them is easier and you often get a better product. In fact looking at your list all are variations of material found in Tarbell or Greater Magic.
There is some great material to be found in books that will have to be made by you and are well worth it. I think what most people need help on is presentation and routining. |
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Bob Sanders 1945 - 2024 Magic Valley Ranch, Clanton, Alabama 20504 Posts
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In grad school we have six levels of definition for "professional". The lowest level is "does it for money". The highest levels of professionalism require accountability to authority for errors and omissions in their work. Thus, CPAs and physicians are at the high end and attorneys at the low end. (When it comes to errors and omissions, usually attorneys are considered employees and only subject to termination by the employer. At the upper end, professionals are liable to clients for what "could or should" have been done.) At the upper end, "professional work" is judged by peers without the authority to benefit any specific consumer of the "professional service". However, they may expel a peer from the group. (Yes, attorneys can be disbarred. However, it usually exclusion from membership for an infraction that has other legal consequences that would apply to non attorneys as well. i.e. theft, double agency, etc.)
Entertainers enjoy a peculiar class of professionalism. First, it may not be services for money! A wonderful characteristic of professional entertainers is that the first thing they offer (even for free!) in a time of need is themselves. Other professionals are seldom willing to do that. Some may even have to deal with prohibitions regarding even "offering" professional services for free or money compensation. Entertainers are judged for professionalism by two different standards. The most significant standards are set by the talent buyer and/or audience served. Those are also economic. Magicians are often employed by a talent buyer who is not even in the audience. The second set is others including both amateurs and professionals with an esoteric interest in the entertainer's vehicle (music, magic, acting, animal training, juggling, etc.). The members of the second group often assume that: 1.) They are qualified experts to judge other entertainers and their vehicles. 2.) They are "entitled" to an opinion on the works of the other entertainer as a peer. 3.) Others give value to their opinions even without solicitation. It is remotely possible to be in both groups, if the entertainer judged works for the second group. This does happen in conventions and lectures. There are even some "professional" entertainers that don't even serve any other audiences. Content of recorded work (today they are content of DVDs) is a good indicator of an entertainer's true profession. Does he perform for more than other entertainers? Drawing the line between amateur and professional magicians is risky business. Rarely is the quality of the mastery of the art a factor. That is decided by the employer in the first case and those who may frankly lack the authority to make such a decision in the second case. Yet we all claim to know the difference! It may even be judged by competitive threats and opportunities perceived by the one judging. In order to be judged by peers, first there must be a recognized method to authorize being peers. There, magicians get into real trouble. That may be the real mystery of magic! Bob Sanders Magic By Sander PS --- As to the lack of new magic, don't forget there are only 88 keys on a real piano. |
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TRUMPETMAN.jpg "View Profile") Special user Naples, FL 705 Posts
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Man, I am passing this on to every entertainer I know.
Kudos, Bob.... :) Mark
Mark Pettey
Naples, FL facebook.com/robbietheringmaster |
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Posted: Oct 11, 2010 04:07 am 
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