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Lee Darrow V.I.P. Chicago, IL USA 3588 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-07-18 17:52, Bill Fienning wrote: Thanks for the kind words, Bill! Your comments, and those of whom have addressed the venue issue are right on the money as well. "Framing" a performance is exceptionally important in bizarre work. Tony Andruzzi, my late friend and mentor, was one of the few who lived the role 24/7. I can't. Nor would I want to, necessarily. But, with the public's perceptions being what they are, and so many people in the business not using disclaimers, framing becomes of almost critical importance in shows like the one we're discussing in this thread. Great points from everyone. Makes me glad I stopped lurking and started participating! Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!" |
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sludge Special user milton keynes, england 530 Posts |
With regard to credibility and believability, as per Derrens premise, I would suggest performing as A devil (of which there may be many) and not THE devil.
I think subtlety is another important thing you would need to bear in mind too, that and respect for your audiences beliefs. This said, in the right frame this type of entertainment could be very entertaining and possibly educational too... you might want to check these sites out r.e. names: http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/torrey/torr0570.htm [outdated link] of course an alternative is the replication of Jesus's miracles.. and all that implies you may find some interesting stories/premises in areas of study like freemasonry and non-mainstream or ancient christian belief systems (cathars etc.), especially in the areas that relate to modern life - for example the strange esoteric symbols present on american bills. I principally mention christian beliefs as afaik The Devil only exists as a negative entity within christianity (non-christian gods are generally dualistic in nature afaik). btw, talking of money, anyone know a good way of altering / placing additional watermarks on currency? I ask as a certain David icke http://www.davidicke.net suggests that Queen Elizabeth II is a shape-shifting reptilian. Although I am a royalist I think it would be kind of fun (but illegal) to alter a watermark of HM to illustrate this and with a bill switch... |
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Necromancer Inner circle Chicago 3076 Posts |
The question being asked here shouldn't be "Wouldn't it be fun to perform as the devil?" Dramatically, it should be "What kind of theatrical experience can I engage in with my audience as the Devil?"
As seen above, there are a variety of answers. Are you going to tempt them with worldly wonders? Are you going to regale them with stories of your conquests? Are you going to seek their sympathy for your plight? Are you going to terrify them with your powers? Are you going to take them to task for their transgressions? Are you going to challenge them to win their souls? Going back to Brown's assertion that one should be a Hero rather than a God, as the Hero is a more believable character to play in modern society (and believability is where truly powerful magic comes from) -- the same applies to the Devil. He's just too godlike to be believable. If you instead play more of a Faust-like character, and show people what the Devil has done for you (and could do for them, if they would only sign here, please -- as in Bill's abovementioned "Pick A Sin" presentation), that's probably closer to the spirit of Brown's message. Best of luck, Neil
Creator of The Xpert (20 PAGES of reviews!), Cut & Color, Hands-Off Multiple ESP (HOME) System, Rider-Waite Readers book, Zoom Pendulum ebook ...
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dpe666 Inner circle 2895 Posts |
The only powers that the devil has are the powers that men give to him. Maybe focus on presenting the effects in a way that shows men giving in to temptation.
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Alexander Regular user UK 124 Posts |
Thank you all.
I've been thinking about this idea for a while, hence why I haven't replied to your posts. First I love many of the performance ideas e.g. Ignorance's idea on the candles, tempting people, etc. But I would also like to state that if i where to perform as "The Devil" it would not be as some of you seem to think. I believe I said NOT theatrically (sp?) but this would be communicated subtily, not just stated in a kind of "Good evening everyone, thank you for coming, I'm the Devil", but there would be an undercurrent of "I'm evil". It may be said more out right in a humorus way e.g. returning to the candle idea, I would have maybe 6 candles representing the 6 people I will use for my "experements", lit. And with my most evil smile say, "These represent your souls which I will be exstinguishing later". I would blow out 1 at a time if it went well, perhaps leaving 1, so I can "get them back later". I'm not sure if I've made my point, but Derren's Hero Idea is not just said out loud for the world to hear, it is 'detected' by the spec's, as I would like for the Devil like persona to be. I can't explain it very well as it's just an image in my head, so I will stop, any questions I will do my best to answer. Thanks, Alex.
The Man Who Knows (how to make a good cup of Tea)
Mentalism - Philosophy. the doctrine that mind is the fundamental reality and that objects of knowledge exist only as aspects of the subject's consciounes. |
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theoldfort New user 47 Posts |
I think the devil is a little misunderstood.
She is actually quite a nice lady(used to be an angel and all that). Sure she could do with a little more exercise, drop 30 pounds and maybe not drink so much, but hey who's perfect? She's not evil per se but just has a very dry and unique sense of humour. She does not have as much power as most people attribute to her. I think she talks herself up quite a bit and has a tendency to over exagerate which people don't seem to realise. If you would like a get together let me know and will try to organise something with her. Best Regards Ian |
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dpe666 Inner circle 2895 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-07-27 21:47, theoldfort wrote: What ever gave you the impression that the devil is a woman? The devil is a man through and through. Trust me. He and I play racquetball together. |
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ELS Regular user Chicagoland area, IL 191 Posts |
A great movie about the devil with
many 'why and how' he get's people, it's the Devil's Advocate. With Al Pachino (I may of spelled that wrong), playing the devil. But you may find some idea's with the movie or just enjoy the movie, a favorite of mine. Ed
Were the border between the natural and the supernatural will be nothing any more but fuzzy. http://edwardshanahan.com
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Gracy_hm Regular user Atlanta 195 Posts |
Wow neat idea!
First off this is sortof the direction I have gone in the past but I had a problem of audiance members leaving because they were frightened actually I was possesed by the devil and he spoke thru me lol it was fun but short lived. You ideas take this to a new level which is quite interesting. Looking at "The Devils" original or angelic name we see "Lucifr" wich has the root luc which means light. Now to get an idea of the devel I may direct you to read the Milton tale Paradise Lost he paints the picture of the devil quite clearly. Interesting also to note is the way in which the devil is dipicted is heroic in a sence for although he was cast out of heaven he still keeps moving never giving up but my tip read Paradise Lost it is great on many levels and just may shine some "light" on this subject. Take care, Kyle |
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Alexander Regular user UK 124 Posts |
ELS - It was from watching Al Pachino in the Devil's Advocate that sprung the idea in to my head. Im not usally a fan of Al Pachino but loved him in this, as soon as he hit the screen, BAM, you knew he was the devil. This is waht im looking to create.
Gracy_hm - Where could I find Paradise Lost? sounds like a good read.
The Man Who Knows (how to make a good cup of Tea)
Mentalism - Philosophy. the doctrine that mind is the fundamental reality and that objects of knowledge exist only as aspects of the subject's consciounes. |
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Seance Elite user Talking on the other side with 427 Posts |
Alexander:
Paradise Lost was written by John Milton, and is considered one of the greatest examples of English literature existing. My favorite quote from that is Lucifer saying in response to the choice he must make: "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven." One may find numerous editions in Amazon.com. My suggestion would be the Norton Critical Edition, since it has essays and criticism which enhances the understanding of the epic poem. Hope this helps. Dave |
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Alexander Regular user UK 124 Posts |
Thanks Dave, Ive herd that line before and now I know where it comes from. Thanks for the suggestion's I will look it up.
The Man Who Knows (how to make a good cup of Tea)
Mentalism - Philosophy. the doctrine that mind is the fundamental reality and that objects of knowledge exist only as aspects of the subject's consciounes. |
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Gracy_hm Regular user Atlanta 195 Posts |
Glad I could help have fun its a great book!
Take care, Kyle |
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cogliostro New user Tampa 99 Posts |
"Paradise Lost" is also available online -
http://www.literature.org/authors/milton-john/paradise-lost/ I would suggest that you skim the online version, as in my own humble opinion, the book is more interesting to discuss than to actually read. - Rob |
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Alexander Regular user UK 124 Posts |
Thanks Rob! It went straght to my bookmarks.
The Man Who Knows (how to make a good cup of Tea)
Mentalism - Philosophy. the doctrine that mind is the fundamental reality and that objects of knowledge exist only as aspects of the subject's consciounes. |
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Steven Steele Chief of Staff 1868 Posts |
I would go to the source, The Bible, to determine the difference. First of all God is more powerful than the Devil. The devil, known as Lucifer, was the head angel. He has the same powers as all angels, with one small difference. Lucifer was prideful and that is what caused his downfall. Angels use their powers (abilities) to serve God. Lucifer uses his powers to serve himself.
Given that, I don't think watching a selfish self-centered magician would be very appealing. Steven
Coram Deo
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chmara Inner circle Tucson, AZ 1911 Posts |
George Bernard Shaw in his magnum opus "Man and Superman" in act two or three "Don Juan In Hell" presents a much more magical view of the Devil as he speaks (even for Shaw) through the Devil who classifies Milton's Paradise Lost as "a tedious tome through which neither I nor anyone else has ever successfully waded." (It is chilling, BTW to hear Charles Laughton deliver the Devil's lines in old recordings with Cedric Hardwick and Charles Boyer and Agnes Moorehead.)
Having said that -- please remember in Aramaic and Greek through the time of the Council of Nicea (and in Gnostic Belief) Satan was really conceived AS THE LOYAL OPPOSITION -- in a true sense that the US has not experienced since WORLD WAR II. Not EVIL -- but opposition. Evil was a thing apart in the old texts. Think of this, why do insurance companies call tornados, eathquakes, natural firestorms, floods and tsunamis "Acts of God?" We MUST remember that the devil -- even with the Imps shown on magic posters during the 1900 - 1930 era -- was often considered a benign temptor UNLESS THE INDIVIDUAL CAVED IN TO TEMPTATIONof his imps and minions. The Puritan witch burnings of three centuries earlier were an offshoot of the tyhpe of "justice" used in the Spanish Inquisition by the Catholic Church -- and meeted out to Catholics in England by the Protestants when given the power. The Satanic verses of Rushdie -- got him a Fatwah of death -- just a very few years ago -- so to Muslim believers, is Satan different. And to about a billion Hindus -- the concept of "opposition and cycle" are more important than the myths that surround angels, devils, djinns and the afterlife. Bhuddists too -- recognize "evil spirits" (look at who tempted Sidhartha under the tree) and realize, to them, it is an individual path (not battle) to stay straight on their individual path to Nirvahna. SO -- WHO -- ON STAGE -- IS THE DEVIL? More and more I come to think it is the magician who belittles a volunteer -- makes fun of an audience member at that patron's expense -- cares not for audience feedback -- and keeps doing the same old stuff without thought, and considers adding a new joke -- a new dramatic approach. If you are considering the Devil as a character in your magic -- contact Fr. Daniel Roland @ frdaniel@earthlink.net and ask about his tour of a full blown magic show (just ended eight weeks in Arizona, California, Oregon, Nevada and various other places) as a Catholic priest. His whole approach is a well learned one from studying Eugene Burger and Jeff McBride....and he translates it to stage wonderfully. Just putting on a Devil suit could be fun -- but developing a character in the Christian sense might be more work than one would expect -- unless you wanted to be lynched somewhere in the back woods of the bible belt. So, my feeling, is stick with a devilish smile, the twinle of a leprechaun's eye, the moves of an Oberon and the speech of the Devil himself as portrayed in Mark Twain's Letters from Earth and Shaw's Don Juan in Hell. With respect---for all here -- Merry Meet or not!
Gregg (C. H. Mara) Chmara
Commercial Operations, LLC Tucson, AZ C. H. Mara Illusion & Psychic Entertainments |
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ELS Regular user Chicagoland area, IL 191 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-07-30 12:10, Alexander wrote: I knew that! Just confirming your thoughts with you in my post to you. Ed
Were the border between the natural and the supernatural will be nothing any more but fuzzy. http://edwardshanahan.com
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Dan LeFay Inner circle Holland 1371 Posts |
Just read this whole topic after my friend Amon-Re mentioned it to me. Fascinating!
One thought comes up: esoteric knowledge can not be faked. Once you start using themes like god-like or devil-like powers be prepared to be confronted with at least the amount of ideas that is brought forth in this thread, probably much more. Are you willing to have that during your performance? A number of contemporary sources, concerning the Lord of Hosts, were already named. Neil Gaiman's work being my favorite (of course). For those who appreciate the combination of visuals with words (which magicians don't?) I can also recommend John Constantine Hellblazer from DC Vertigo comics. Not for the faint of hearted!
"Things need not have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths, that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot." Neil Gaiman |
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RandyStewart Inner circle Texas (USA) 1989 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-07-17 22:47, JonTown wrote: Even in real life situations, this can be a difficult question to answer. For instance, here in Dallas, we recently had a teenager run into a burning apt. building and saved the lives of a couple of children before fire dept. could arrive. Even authorities agreed they would of perished had it not been for the young man's heroic act. The following day he was thrown in jail as he had recently violated his probation on a past drug possession charge. Villain? Hero, Both? What the heck is he and what do we do with him now? It's been said Satan can be an Angel of Light. Yeah tough question indeed. I hope some of you can create a distinction that most of us can identify and live with. |
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