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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » A warning for Vancouver professional magicians (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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The Burnaby Kid
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I was talking about the use of other magicians' names in his advertising. I could care less about what he charges. That's been the major issue from the beginning.
Dan Bernier
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Quote:
On 2011-02-08 18:54, Andrew Musgrave wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-02-08 17:40, Gospel Dan wrote:
My last post didn't come out the way I meant it to. I was trying to respond about the undercutting. Your issue has nothing to do with that. That would be a totally different issue altogether.


It's been the MAJOR issue, from the beginning.


I'm getting confused here. Smile
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
The Burnaby Kid
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Gospel Dan,

Read the thread again, and it should be clear. From the start, nobody here was complaining about anything to do with competitive pricing. The issue is unethical marketing.
Dan Bernier
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Quote:
On 2011-02-08 18:54, Andrew Musgrave wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-02-08 17:40, Gospel Dan wrote:
My last post didn't come out the way I meant it to. I was trying to respond about the undercutting. Your issue has nothing to do with that. That would be a totally different issue altogether.


It's been the MAJOR issue, from the beginning.


I did read all the posts, especially this one which lead me to believe that undercutting was the MAJOR issue from the beginning. I was stating that undercutting WAS NOT the issue, then you quoted me and said it WAS the MAJOR issue.

I'm relieved to know it was not me confused. Smile
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HerbLarry
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Forget Maj. Issue sounds more like Gen. Havoc.
You know why don't act naive.
Andrew Zuber
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My issue with this whole thing is that some folks might have their names included in his marketing techniques, and either not know it or not know what to do about it. They might think it's perfectly ethical and sit back, doing nothing.

That said, Andrew isn't just standing up for himself. Sure he has a vested interest in this because HIS name is being used, but I watched that horrible video - there's a GIANT list of names after that. There could be plenty of people on there who also want to see this kind of thing stop. I'd say he's fighting for those people as much as for himself (correct me if I'm wrong on this, Andrew, but you mentioned getting others involved as well so I would assume you're doing this for others too!)

I quickly watched the video once through - I watched it the way someone shopping for an entertainer might watch it. If there's a comparison to Andrew's services, I either missed it or it's on another video, or it's been removed. The problem with tagging other performers is that your work doesn't speak for them!! If someone searches Andrew Musgrave Vancouver Magician and this video comes up (which is very poorly made,) that could lead the consumer to think that it's Andrew's video. While they don't book this guy's company, they'll also remember Andrew's name and avoid HIS services in the future as well. By putting out bad materials and linking other names to them, this guy isn't just hurting his own business, he's harming others.

I find it a little unsettling to see others chiming in and quoting the big numbers they pull in and the number of shows they've booked. This isn't about boosting egos - just because it hasn't hurt YOUR business doesn't mean it hasn't hurt someone else. It's like saying, "I've never been in a car accident, so all this fuss about seat belt laws seems ridiculous." A - It DOES affect other people and that should be noted, and B - Just because it hasn't happened to you yet doesn't mean it couldn't happen down the line somewhere.

Andrew did the polite thing by contacting this person and asking to have his name removed. The guy responded like a child and that shows a lot about his character. It's not just about legalities, it's about doing the RIGHT thing. I'd be fighting it too.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
Dan Bernier
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The only other Vancouver magicians who have come forward have done so to say that what Rob is doing does not effect them. Andrew has also admitted that his business has not been hurt. I still have yet to hear from these other so called Vancouver magicians that Andrew has reffered to. Wait, I did hear from a couple of them. One contacted me to inform me about Rob's past, and how Rob wants to destroy the magic industry in Vancouver. The other magician pmed me to let me know that Andrew DOES NOT represent the magicians in Vancouver.

The question about Rob's ethics are a matter of opinion. Any magic club can set their own ethics, but they cannot force an outsider to live according to their set of ethics. Just because someone doesn't share the same ethics doesn't make the person unethical.

I don`t agree to what Rob is doing, but I also didn`t agree with how Andrew wanted to handle the situation. Rob was being called unethical for his actions, and I was calling Andrew on his unethical behaviour. Again, people have didn`t ethics, and live by a different set of them.

It also bothered me to see another Vancouver magician join another forum and pretend he was a lawyer. No opinions needed there. Posing as a lawyer is against the law. This magician knows who they are, and they know I know who they are.
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The Burnaby Kid
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Quote:
On 2011-02-12 12:04, Andrewzuber wrote:
I'd say he's fighting for those people as much as for himself (correct me if I'm wrong on this, Andrew, but you mentioned getting others involved as well so I would assume you're doing this for others too!)


It just seemed like the right thing to do. I figured there'd be other magicians interested in the problem, and if the correspondance I've received since this whole thing started is any indication, I was correct.

Quote:
I find it a little unsettling to see others chiming in and quoting the big numbers they pull in and the number of shows they've booked.


It's only fair that different people are going to have different reactions to what's going on. If they've been targeted but they feel it doesn't affect them, and they want to say so, then that's relevant to the subject. Clint not only said it didn't affect him, but explained why, and that's good information. It's not applicable to my specific situation, nor the situations of everybody else I've spoken to about this, but it's still relevant.
J.Warrens
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Well, I don't want this to be misconstrued as a negative comment for or against, but, I'm a Vancouver magician and have been for a very long time.

I would agree that Andrew doesn't represent Vancouver magicians. However, I do very much appreciate him bringing this to our attention at the very least.

There have been other pro's from Van who've also showed up on this post(albeit quietly)such as Ray Wong, who has been a pro working in Vancouver much longer than I have.

I did post earlier about where disputes and ill-feelings took me. There will always be people using sneaky tactics to try and gain a market advantage - this isn't new.

I have since learned to forget about it and move on. In the end, it isn't worth it.

For example: let's talk about the depletion of fish stocks in the ocean due to pollution and over-fishing and how there won't be any left by 2050 if we don't change our ways and commit to a plan of action. etc, etc. I think things like this, that affect us all on a global level are of much greater importance.

The best marketing for me has always been during actual paid performances: the proof is in the pudding.

Cheers,
J.Warrens
Clinton W. Gray
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Quote:
On 2011-02-13 20:16, J.Warrens wrote:

I have since learned to forget about it and move on. In the end, it isn't worth it.

For example: let's talk about the depletion of fish stocks in the ocean due to pollution and over-fishing and how there won't be any left by 2050 if we don't change our ways and commit to a plan of action. etc, etc. I think things like this, that affect us all on a global level are of much greater importance.

The best marketing for me has always been during actual paid performances: the proof is in the pudding.


Well said Mr. Warrens. I adopted a rabbit from the SPCA today. He's sleeping on my chest right now, with his littple bunny whiskers tickling my chin. That's magic to me.
Clinton W. Gray
Magician in Vancouver BC
J.Warrens
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@ Clint: Nice! Has it got a name yet?

Nice to see you on here, Clint.

Cheers!
Clinton W. Gray
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His name was Twitch at the SPCA and I don't like changing a pets name as it can be confusing for them. So were going to stick with Twitch (no pun intended).
Clinton W. Gray
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The Burnaby Kid
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Since there was some smacktalk earlier about how all this effort his been for not, I thought I'd offer an update on how things have been going.

First, Rob's videos naming other magicians in the titles and captions have been taken down from a number of video sites, including (most notably) Youtube and Yahoo video, as well as a number of smaller sites.

Second, Rob's spamming on various internet forums and two different Vancouver classified ad sites has been taken care of.

Third, thanks to some SEO strategies (legitimate ones, I should point out), searches involving my name now have a far better ratio of results in the top 20 that point to me rather than to him, and many of the previous results that were pointing to him either no longer exist or have been pushed down so low as to be irrelevant. Anybody interested in learning more about the SEO strategies that have helped rectify this problem can shoot me off a PM if they so desire.

Things aren't entirely over, but a fair amount has been accomplished already without the involvement of a single lawyer -- which, given that he continues acts of defamation and misleading advertising elsewhere, might not yet be out of the question. The important thing, though, is that this thread has brought about results.

I'd also like to send out a sincere "Thank You" to people who've been working on this out of the limelight. I don't claim to represent Vancouver magicians as a whole, but I do know that it was the efforts of various Vancouver magicians (some known to me, others unknown) who helped accomplish much of the above. I'm grateful for how much it's helped me personally to deal with this, and I'm hopeful that others have been able to benefit as well. In my mind, this is a great example of Magicians Helping Magicians.

Additionally, thanks to the Café Mods who've kept this thread going despite its potential controversial nature.
Tim Ellis
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Take a look at this sort of use of other magicians name's to boost your rankings.

Scroll to the "article" at the bottom of the page

http://www.magicmike.net.au/australian-magician/
Sock Puppet Monkey
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Magicians are just people and some of them just don't play well with others. Love the guys that show up your gig and then make contact with the booker about why they should have booked them instead of you. Or how about the guy that sends out fake booking emails asking for prices to his local magic club "friends" so that he can price himself more competitively. Bonus with that story is that at the time he was the local president of the magic club!

There's plenty of stories like this out there and yet we remain a brotherhood. Best thing to do is have nothing to do with them as they don't want a brotherhood but rather everything for themselves. I commend Andrew for standing up to this guy and his low class marketing methods.

SPM
Clinton W. Gray
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Since this thread is titled "A Warning for Vancouver Professional Magicians" I thought I'd pass this along:

Don't take gigs in downtown Vancouver on the night of Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals.

~Clinton
Clinton W. Gray
Magician in Vancouver BC
Dan Bernier
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Quote:
On 2011-06-16 12:01, prestyman wrote:
Since this thread is titled "A Warning for Vancouver Professional Magicians" I thought I'd pass this along:

Don't take gigs in downtown Vancouver on the night of Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals.

~Clinton


LOL
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SHAY The Funny Clown
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6 years later
Now he's focused on me

Not leaving me
I filed a complaint with the police
I went to an attorney

Nothing helps ...

For now...
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