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Jan Walla
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I would like to produce a raven from a pair of black gloves as my opener to my bizarre mentalism act.

The gloves should disappear the instant the raven appears and the raven should ideally fly over the audience. Ok, the flying part is not what I am asking for here Smile. Thx.

Any ideas folks?
Magic, in essence, is the ability of conjuring spirits who help the magician accomplish astonishing feats.
<BR>-Be glad that I am not a Sorcerer... Smile
Fábio DeRose
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Bottomline is: you are asking for the method?

If so, get Andy Amy'x Doves 101.
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Alexo
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Lets just say they're a few reasons magicians use doves. My philosophy with animal magic is don't commit to a method until you know the behavior and attitude of the animal. It's much easier to design an effect around an animals natural behavior than to train the animal around the effect. Study method but actually get a raven or whatever your going to use and study the animal before you start getting too excited or confident.
RJE2
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The gloves vanish no problem, think pull. Hopefully that's understandable enough for a magician yet still cryptic enough for an open forum.

Producing a raven, wow! A raven is a BIG bird. Look at methods to produce a chicken and you will probably be on the right track. Also check to make sure that is legal to have a raven in where ever it is you are.
Spellbinder
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First get a raven and get it to fly around and land on your hand. Then report back here for lesson two.
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Fábio DeRose
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Quote:
On 2011-10-03 12:56, RJE2 wrote:
The gloves vanish no problem, think pull. Hopefully that's understandable enough for a magician yet still cryptic enough for an open forum.


There are much, much simpler methods to pull this effect off (pun intended).
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RJE2
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Hmmmm, simpler than just taking off your gloves and letting them go???? I would be interested in learning some of those.
Jan Walla
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The glove vanish is not the problem. What I like to know is how to accomplish the production with such a bird more or less like you would produce a dove (which method I am also very familiar with) I would use an invisible harness...

Perhaps a crow is better since they are smaller. I just want to get away from the regular white dove production everybody does.
Be different...? It would be an opener for a bizzare mentalism act.

So someone who has experience with any of those exotic feathers and who can give an honest advise as how they would B..y load this, please let me know. Even in a PM.

Thx.
Magic, in essence, is the ability of conjuring spirits who help the magician accomplish astonishing feats.
<BR>-Be glad that I am not a Sorcerer... Smile
Bill Hegbli
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Well here is the truth, it is not possible produce a Raven or Crow. They will attack you, they are wild birds and not trainable.

I do not see how this would be a good intro for a mentaiism act. Your 1st effect should tell the audience what they will experience for the hour.
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Alexo
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Crows make lousy pets and would destroy most things used to produce birds. Keep in mind you'd be dealing with a not very people friendly and high maintenance bird with problem solving intelligence and a very sharp beak. My point was that the animal you have in mind may not be the best candidate for the effect. Doves have very limited intelligence and Parrots learn to love people so that's why they get used. It would be a great effect but the logistics are staggering.

take a look here if you're still interested
http://www.ascaronline.org/crowfaq.htm#faq3
Daniel Kane
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I have worked with doves for almost 20 years and with large macaws and budgies for the past 3-4 years, but no crows or ravens.

I do not think this however is impossible, but I want you to consider if you have the time it takes to take care of a crow or raven.
I would guess these birds in many ways can be compared to a macaw or some of the other large parrots when it comes to commitment and time.

They need to be socialised and trained properly by someone that have exstensive knowledge.

I will give you an adress to a guy that I know sell Ravens and Crows, he also has macaws. He trains his birds for free flight etc.
I have only seen videos of him on youtube, but I know he has a website. His name is Daniel Walters.

http://danielwalthers.com/
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Jan Walla
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Wow, thank you very much to take the time to give me all this prescious info.

Daniel, that info is gold. Had no idea that person existed.

Again, thank you all. Much appreciated


Quote:
On 2011-10-03 16:55, wmhegbli wrote:
Well here is the truth, it is not possible produce a Raven or Crow. They will attach you, they are wild birds and not trainable.


That needs to be seen. Where there is a will there is a way.

Quote:
I do not see how this would be a good intro for a mentaiism act. Your 1st effect should tell the audience what they will experience for the hour.


Really? Any idea how my act looks like to make such a statement?
Magic, in essence, is the ability of conjuring spirits who help the magician accomplish astonishing feats.
<BR>-Be glad that I am not a Sorcerer... Smile
IDOTRIX
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Jan a lot of good info. You just have to weed out the dream stealers.
Bill Hegbli
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I would venture to say you will not make the sacrifices it takes to make a long term commitment to the training of such a bird.

Well, if you would do some research on Ravens, you will find most people believe they are bad luck, then it is further bad luck to have them in a dwelling.

Not to mention most audiences will be afraid of such a wild bird because of their reputation.

Unless you are going to read the birds mind, it has no relationship to mentalism magic presentation as it is used on this forum.

And no, I do not know your what your act looks like, but being you have not given any information as to context, I have to believe you are doing mental magic as it is presented in magic.

Just make sure you have very good liability insurance for your audiences.
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MagicalMotivator
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Jan,

Why not simply "dye" a dove black (or deep purple). Many many magicians dye (I have not personally) their doves and is this not possible, provided it can safely be done? Most of the time after I have produced my doves people call them "pigeons" (which as we all know are larger and not like doves at all) simply because they don't know any better. I would harzard a guess that the average person would not know the difference between a crow - raven - black dove - on stage or up close. It might be a resonable way to start to test the effect out and work with a more personable pet.

MM
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Spellbinder
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You haven't yet finished lesson one. Don't know where to get one? Here's the only place anyone seems to know of in the USA: http://www.corvitude.com/corvidranch.html

Let us know when you've got one and are hand training him and confident you are ready for lesson two.
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Markgician
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Jan Walla, if I were you, I'd go with MagicalMotivator's suggestion, just dye the dove black instead. You get the same outcome for less the stress.
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Dr. Solar
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And cost, from the look of those prices. I've always wanted a Raven but not at that price. how long does one live?
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Kyle^Ravin
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Jan Walla, I've an idea... but I don't know how you might use it. Get a larger version of the balloon to Dove tray. Some versions allow you to throw an object onto the tray and transform it into a dove. I think Anton Corradin has something like this. You might need a bigger tray though. Remove your gloves, Throw them onto the tray and POOF! you get a crow! This keeps you Very clean and I think it instantly increases your performance space, from just outstretched in front of you to the 'table' with a crow on it on the right.
Kyle^Ravin
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Quote:
On 2011-10-03 14:10, Spellbinder wrote:
First get a raven and get it to fly around and land on your hand. Then report back here for lesson two.


Sorry... just had to... This is funny! Check out my reply above though...
Jan Walla
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Quote:
On 2011-10-03 19:47, MagicalMotivator wrote:
Jan,

Why not simply "dye" a dove black (or deep purple). Many many magicians dye (I have not personally) their doves and is this not possible, provided it can safely be done? Most of the time after I have produced my doves people call them "pigeons" (which as we all know are larger and not like doves at all) simply because they don't know any better. I would harzard a guess that the average person would not know the difference between a crow - raven - black dove - on stage or up close. It might be a resonable way to start to test the effect out and work with a more personable pet.

MM


I was thinking about that as well and looking at those horrendous prices...$2000 for a baby raven and $1500 for a crow...It might very well be an option to consider. I have to contact someone who has raised one and see what their usual behaviour pattern is.

This crow doesn't seem aggresiv at all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s87RV8crR......ec_index

All I need the bird to do is lay still in the baggy and when he is tossed fly to point B over audience to mid mezzanine.

Are those dyes readily available? Are they safe for the bird?

Oh and who says or where is it written that you can't mix certain magic with mentalism?
Magic, in essence, is the ability of conjuring spirits who help the magician accomplish astonishing feats.
<BR>-Be glad that I am not a Sorcerer... Smile
IDOTRIX
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MagicalMotivator
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Quick note - just came back from walking our dog and I came across two really grey mourning doves - very, very dark grey, almost black - looked really quite eerie.

Regarding dying doves, there are some dove magic books out there that cover this. I know Andy Aymx carries dove dying products (but I did not see black) http://www.andyamyx.com/store/accessories.html - you may want to contact him.

MM
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windrunner
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MagicalMOtivator, as read through the thread I was thinking dying all the way. I have seen doves many colors to match a silks. Also, if you want a larger bird use a pidgin. It would look more like a crow or a raven.
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Jan Walla
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Quote:
On 2011-10-05 09:14, windrunner wrote:
MagicalMOtivator, as read through the thread I was thinking dying all the way. I have seen doves many colors to match a silks. Also, if you want a larger bird use a pidgin. It would look more like a crow or a raven.


Interesting. Thanks for all the tips. I was even thinking to attach a black, fake crows beak to the dove. It will only be for a while and should be OK.
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<BR>-Be glad that I am not a Sorcerer... Smile
MagicalMotivator
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I would NOT attach a fake crows beak to the dove. I really believe that would be cruel and unwise.

MM
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Alexo
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The fake beak notwithstanding. Do you want the bird to fly back or just fly over the audience. If he doesn't fly back you're gonna hear the same thing that was said to James Dimmare when he had the birds just fly over,
"I'd hire you back if you trained the bird to fly back to you instead of having him poop allover my customers"
Lou Hilario
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I used to produce a Mynah.. It went well. But you have to train it to jump from one hand to the other first and vice versa. I discontinued it for the reason that I hate that watery poop splashing all over the floor and me.
If you want a bird that looks bizarre, get a Black Palm Cockatoo, they are very intelligent, that's if you can afford them. I wanted to have one a long time ago but I felt that was too much just for my shows.
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Daniel Kane
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Lou: If he can not afford a Raven then he can hardly afford a Black Palm Cockatoo.

Also I would like to add that I don´t think you understand the amount of training that you would have to put into this.
This is not a dove, they are both birds but they are very very different in their mindset.

Look at this as a macaw or cockatoo, these birds have to be with you almost all the time unless you have two.
I socialise with my blue and gold while I do other things. I spend maybe between 6-10 hours with it per day, while I practice magic etc.

You also have to know the right techniques to train them, or else you will get an abnoxious and aggressive bird.
I spent rougly 2 years, if not more before I got my blue and gold. Learned techniques on free flying, how to train them in every day life
etc. My approach to this changed a lot during the process, in the end I got my blue and gold cause I first and foremost wanted it as a pet.
Not because I wanted it for a magic effect. I think that is the right approach, since you are going to spend so much time with it.

Call Daniel Walthers and ask as many questions as possible, and also read up on training techniques.
Ask him about the differences between having a bird like this and a macaw parrot for instance, the time and commitment
they require.

I think the idéa about using a pidgeon or a dove is better in many ways.

Good luck!
~It´s kind of fun to do the impossible~
~Walt Disney~

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Spellbinder
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Now that we've explored all this, what is really wanted is a bizarre magic effect involving a raven, and we won't take nevermore for an answer. The simple and bizarre answer is to use a stuffed raven in a cage. You can get some nice realistic crows at arts and crafts stores these days, especially as Halloween decorations. The difference between a raven and a crow is much less than the difference between a raven and a writing desk, so you should have no difficulty passing off the bird in a cage as a raven. The bizarre magic is this: you cover up the cage from time to time, and everytime you hear a rustling noise from the cage, or see some movement in the cloth cover, you remove it and the bird is in a new position each time - still stuffed, but just posed differently. Now that's bizarre enough to give one a slight chill in the seance room. If you have a need to get the black gloves into the act, remove the black gloves and toss them at the covered cage, whereupon they vanish in mid flight. Now uncover the cage and inside, instead of the raven, are black gloves twisted and molded to appear to be a raven. When you release the gloves and put them back on, there is a bird call from high up, and the guests turn in time to see the raven perched on the top of an open window just before it vanishes into the night. All for the cost of a couple of fake ravens, some black thread, and a lot of work and planning. http://www.christmasinprescott.com/210837.html
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