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Zombie Magic Inner circle I went out for a beer and now have 8733 Posts 
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I doubt I'll ever see another thread like this. I agree with EVERYONE. Those that think it stinks, those that say the demo is deceptive, those that say it kills. Everyone is right.
I have no doubt that if David Copperfield performed it, it would be stellar. David Regal would turn it into a funny showpiece. I also have no doubt that if Plain Joe Magi did it, they would bore their audience to tears. If you were a Lady magi, or worked in a Hawaiian themed restaurant, you could wear them. It's not for me. To me, it's a boring puzzle. But someone else may love it. |
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts
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Interesting post, Zombie...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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chrispuppets New user 7 Posts
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I am not David Copperfield, nor am I an Hawaiian lady. I AM a plain Joe Magi who has earned his living as a full time professional for over 50 years. I therefore presume I am not boring my audiences, at least not on a regular basis. I have used this trick regularly for around 30 years since I was gobsmacked by Ken Brooke demming it so many years ago. I have found it a superb audience pleaser.
Actually I should be happy that so many seem eager to rubbish this revival of the effect (without, for the majority, having bought it or witnessed it live) since the fewer who work it the more exclusive it remains. I have ordered Dean's version for it is obvious that he has given a great deal of thought to improving and routine building and I'm sure I'll learn something. And as a pro I am past the stage where it is the secrets that are important. By the way, I do not know, have never met nor corresponded with Dean and so cannot be accused of being a crony. I just feel that perhaps judgement by experience fairer than condemnation by conjecture. |
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Zombie Magic Inner circle I went out for a beer and now have 8733 Posts
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Wold love to see a video of anyone using this and 'killing' their audience. IN fact, I'd love to see someone do the beads and then the Haunted Pack and tell us honestly which one was stronger and more memorable.
The next week they'll remember and talk about the haunted pack. They won't care or remember the bead counting trick. As far as anyone condemning the trick, online demos are filmed and used to entice consumers to buy. If they aren't honest and boring, who is to blame? |
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emyers99 Inner circle Columbus, Ohio 4748 Posts
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I don't even care that the demo is arguably deceptive. My whole point is that there is absolutely no way any magician can look at this and not instantly think of at least 10-20 tricks that are way way stronger. (if you can't, that's scary on a different level). Given that, why would you ever choose to perform this over one of those? So I am totally in the camp with Derren Brown (as someone said above) on this one. Perform the strongest magic you can...or don't bother performing. So to the question of could a Copperfield or Blaine make this memorable...the answer is that we will never know because they will choose much stronger effects to perform than this when the money is on the line.
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Xiqual Inner circle Upper left quadrant 4935 Posts
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Too many magician's fall into the "Oh it is so easy to carry." or "It just goes on my neck and it doesn't take up space."
or "It resets right away." I believe it is not about convenience but impact. Let's watch and see if this trick is convenient: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHmEH9p6D0Y
Still with the Chinese circus
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Zombie Magic Inner circle I went out for a beer and now have 8733 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-04-23 19:09, Xiqual wrote: Now, THAT IS entertaining and memorable. Talented guy! |
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FrenchDrop Inner circle I can name that tune in 1647 Posts
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I've never seen such realism in a mechanical, folding baby duck!
(In all seriousness...anyone working up a cups & balls routine needs to look at the running time of that video. 2:22. If your routine is going to run longer than that, you'd better find a way to make it more entertaining and impactful than James's. Good luck with that.  )
"A great magician has said of his profession that its practitioners '… must pound and rack their brains to make the least learning go in, but quarrelling always comes very naturally to them.'” -- Susanna Clarke, Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3017 Posts
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Why is it that if someone thinks it won't play strong for their audience, it won't play strong for any audience? Are there more powerful effects? Yes. Tons. Is my goal to beat spectators in the head with magic and cram it down their throats? No. Not in my shows. I entertain and THIS entertains. Who cares if it's viewed as a puzzle? When I hear kids yell, "how did you do that???" then that's worth the price of admission for me.
What's insane is the number of people bashing this who have never even used it. Show me the posts where people bought it, put it into their act, and then tossed it. Funny how those of us that DO own and use it are loving it, while others assume it's not strong and won't play well. You can MAKE a stron magical moment. I've seen the linking fingers rings done almost as a gag, a joke. Then I've seen Jonathan Pendragon do them and heard the gasps. Anything can be weak and anything can play huge depending on how you routine it, and these are no different. As for the demo, off the top of my head I know Jon Armstrong has a routine with a Frixion pen on his L&L series that requires pre-show. Let me know where that thread is so we can lay into him as well. I think Dean is smart for not caring what people say on these boards anymore. I should learn from that.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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Magicsquared Inner circle 1262 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-04-23 20:43, Andrew Zuber wrote: There's quite a difference between what's on a DVD and what's on a DEMO for an individual trick. (I know you know that, and the only reason you chose the Jon Armstrong example is that you couldn't think of another effect that used pre-show work in the demo for a close-up effect. And the reason for that is because it's a horrible idea and would never be accepted as being an appropriate way to try and sell a trick, and we shouldn't accept it here.) |
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Zombie Magic Inner circle I went out for a beer and now have 8733 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-04-23 20:43, Andrew Zuber wrote: No one is against pre-show work ( and your Armstrong example doesn't support your argument ). The dealer demo for Dean's Bead's is misleading and should be changed. |
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Xiqual Inner circle Upper left quadrant 4935 Posts
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Andrew,
You really take all the comments here and just blow them all out of proportion. You are an actor so I suppose that comes with the territory, but comparing linking finger rings to Dean's beads? Then throwing in Jonathan Pendragon's name, doesn't even make sense. Let's just use this example. Rings are metal. People have all seen rings. When they link, and because they believe it is a borrowed ring, they are stunned. Do you borrow someones necklace and then switch it, do the trick? That would be awesome actually. If we can just get people to start wearing those pop bead necklaces it would be great. Andrew, I have seen your Youtube show, it's funny, you certainly have talent, let's see some magic performances of yours. I am also teacher. I use magic in all my classes. NO KIDS ask me "How did you do that?" I usually have to tell them that magic is just an illusion. BTW, this is not a personal attack, it is an opinion. James Quote: On 2012-04-23 20:43, Andrew Zuber wrote:
Still with the Chinese circus
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3017 Posts
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So because the demo was on a video, versus a written description of the effect (which you can find on the L&L website) it should be altered? If I READ a routine and think, "I'd love to do that!" and purchase it only to find out there's more to it than meets the eye, that should be acceptable, whereas a video demo isn't?
For the record, this effect is explained on the DVD. Is the method shown? No. That would obviously ruin the routine. Sometimes you buy something and you have to alter clothing to make it work, or build a gimmick, or buy additional items. We're not working miracles here, we all know something is going on behind the scenes. I've seen effects before, bought them, and discovered I wasn't crazy about the method. That's part of buying magic. You're not going to love every single method, but you have to take into consideration the fact that you must do something to make it possible. Sometimes we're not crazy about what that something is, but that's the risk in buying magic props.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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sacramentohypnosis New user America 78 Posts
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I'm pretty sure The Supreme Magic Company put out an effect identical to this using the exact same
type of props in the late 70's/ early 80's Seem to recall it was a package by Ken De Courcy and that it contained loads of spare beads and ideas and routines for numerous other effects as well. May be worth searching the second hand magic suppliers.. I wonder if anyone can remember the name of the Ken De Courcy Supreme Magic Release? |
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Magicsquared Inner circle 1262 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-04-24 10:44, Andrew Zuber wrote: You're out of your mind if you think the two situations are even comparable. Yes, a video demo that shows something done in a casual close-up environment (say... hanging out in a barbershop for instance) should not ever involve pre-show work. I think we all understand that a two-sentence description of an effect on a DVD listing might be an incomplete description. In the ad for this effect, the first bullet point is "Perfect for strolling" When, precisely, am I supposed to do my pre-show work during my strolling gig? How does that work? It also says "Can be done over and over for the same crowd." Again, this is unclear. Am I doing this pre-show work on the same person over and over so they keep half a dozen numbers in their mind and repeat them back to me in order, or am I doing pre-show on everyone in the group (which would defeat the purpose of pre-show, you would think)? Or is it that you can only do the less impressive part over and over. The part where they name a number out loud, you study the necklace for a specific spot to hold it, then they pull it. It almost seems like the ad was written solely about THAT part of the effect and the whole "pre-show work" part of the demo was only put in there to fool a (perhaps naive) portion of the magic-buying audience who couldn't see through what was going on there. |
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Xiqual Inner circle Upper left quadrant 4935 Posts
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Andrew,
Let's see some of YOUR "killer" performances with Dean's beads. Prove us all wrong. Pete Biro said that all the great reactions were before they started recording. Those demos are very "ho hum". Andrew, it falls to you. James ps A little tip: Record everything, even the rehearsal. Quote: On 2012-04-24 10:44, Andrew Zuber wrote:
Still with the Chinese circus
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3017 Posts
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I'm doing a kid's show up in Seattle the middle of May. I will do my best to get a clip recorded then.
I certainly wasn't comparing the linking finger rings to the beads. What I was saying was presentation is key, regardless of the trick. I saw a guy at the castle a few weeks ago do his version of the bill to lemon. It fell totally flat. He missed all of the key moments and his presentation was almost non-existent, if that. The audience was silent, and I heard people saying he was "terrible" afterward. I've seen other people KILL with that. With the right routining it's a miracle. The same held true with the rings - some presentations were incredible, such as Jonthan's, while others were uninspired and empty, using almost exactly the same props. One man's trash in another man's treasure. As for the demo debate, we'll just have to agree to disagree I guess. I did pre-show work at my last strolling gig with kids and it wasn't an issue. It wasn't a sit-down restaurant situation which made it easier, but it can be done. And I just don't see the difference between a demo you can see and a description you can read. To me they are two different ways of communicating the same message, that being the layout of a routine from start to finish. I don't understand why the video is getting heat when a written description wouldn't. If that makes me out of my mind, then so be it. I'm fine with people thinking that. Dean is a good friend, lives and breathes his religion, and would never set out to deceive people. If he believed there was a problem, he would resolve it. I trust him. Xiqual - thanks for the comments on my silly little videos. I've seen some of your stuff as well and it's certainly impressive.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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Xiqual Inner circle Upper left quadrant 4935 Posts
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You are too modest! I think you have real acting talent. I was cracking up about that ball. Very clever idea, well done!
James Quote: On 2012-04-25 02:08, Andrew Zuber wrote:
Still with the Chinese circus
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Magicsquared Inner circle 1262 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-04-25 02:08, Andrew Zuber wrote: We must have different definitions of strolling magic. And pre-show work for that matter. (I don't know how you have the foresight to pre-show one person in every group you encounter in a strolling situation. That's impressive.) But you're mistaken, a written description WOULD get as much heat. The reason the Jon Armstrong written description isn't criticized is because he's not making the claims that Dean is in this ad. It says "instant-reset." By definition, anything that involves pre-show work does NOT instantly reset. Let's imagine this wasn't a Dean Dill effect. Imagine he's not your friend. Let's pretend this was released by some Café whipping boy like Jesse Feinberg. Do you think you'd be okay with claims like "perfect for strolling" "repeat over and over for the same audience" and "instant-reset" for something that involved pre-show work? Somehow I doubt it. And that's my point. As I said, I'm sure Dean doesn't perform it this way in real life (the idea of doing pre-show work to figure out a 2-digit number is ludicrous). I'm sure the way Dean performs for real people it IS perfect for strolling, instantly-reset, and repeatable over and over for the same audience. Because that last phase in the video demo is no doubt something that was included to try and dupe people into buying the effect, not to fool the people he was performing for at the moment. |
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3017 Posts
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Yeah, Dean is all about duping people. That's totally his M.O.
He uses a lot of different presentations - including the one at the end of the demo. I've seen him do it myself on multiple occasions when demoing this for people in the shop. Are all of the presentations an instant reset? No. However, I was able to do this in my last strolling gig because while I was going from table to table, there were lots of kids running around (it was at a Children's hospital) and it was easy to take them aside, do a little something, and then come back to their table later on to do the routine. What I like about these is there are so many different variations as far as routines go. If the ONLY version that appeals to you is the one in question from the demo, are they still for you? Maybe...it depends how much you like that bit. But you can get away with repeating this over and over because you can do it a number of different ways. If people are so upset about the demo, email Dean and explain why. Have you done that? If not, how come? Xiqual - that ball video was in 2009 and my feet are still tired.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 07:12 am 
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