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TrickyRicky
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The last couple of years I was told not to say Merry Christmas to the children. Happy Holidays is allowed.
Even Christmas trees were not allowed at one time.
This is Canada---we have such a multi culteral background that we have to be careful what we say and do in our performances.
How about you guys in the USA and the UK?
tRICKY rICKY
Pecan_Creek
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Well, there are more holidays than just christmas this time of year. Newsflash... not everyone is a christian.
RNK
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Not everyone ia a Christian is correct. On the same token, Cristmas is because of Christ- so to call it a holiday is actually incorrect. And those who aren't christian- why would they celebrate Christmas? If they don't believe then why celebrate a holiday in which they have no belief in how it came about? I am neither praising or bashing Christians- I am just speaking openly in how I see it. I mean- those of us who are not jewish do not celebrate hannukah(sp?)- correct? So- I guess the bottom line is that I believe you should be able to call it for what it is and how it came about- Christ= Christmas! It's a shame that in our society the gov't is trying to take God out of the picture and in response- look how our society keeps degrading(in the USA anyway).

Best,
RNK
Mindpro
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Political correctness has it being the same way here. I appeared at a school last year and asked the students to sit "Indian-style" on the floor, and was reprimanded and lectured before they would pay me. "Indian-style" is not politically correct and could be offensive to Native American's( Indian-American's), so the now proper terminology and way to reference this seating style is "crisscross applesauce". This sounded like such a pre-school term, but this was for 6-8th graders and I was told even for high schools as well. How ridiculous. Of course now anything with Christmas, God, prayer, and even the word heaven (I was also told about this too at the same school) is not politically correct here.
Frank Starsini
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People will find any way to be offended by just about anything. It must be hard work sometimes.
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Donald Dunphy
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I think there are 2 holidays that some people think are 1. I think there is the secular Christmas and there is the Christian Christmas.

A lot of the malls & stores, etc. have a focus on the secular one, with an emphasis on Santa, feel good, tradition, etc. Very little about nativity, hymns, etc. Maybe a few angels and the occassional nativity scene for sale.

Kids who are raised with a secular Christmas might not know anything about the Christian Christmas. They might not understand the symbolism of the stars, angels, etc.

While some Christians allow for Santa, etc., I also know some Christians and churches that want nothing to do with that aspect of the Christmas celebration. I've also heard of some churches allowing for a Christmas tree inside the church, and some not allowing for one.

My show is more about Christmas Fun, so secular Christmas, as that offends less Holiday Party customers / audiences. I think that type of show has commercial appeal. But my personal beliefs lend more to allowing for both secular and Christian Christmas in my home.

And of course, there are some that just want an emphasis on the "Holidays" without naming a specific one.

Of the parties I'm performing at this year, I'm aware of one that is not having a Santa. Part of their reasoning is diversity. But I can still do my Christmas Fun themed show at their party.

- Donald
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Pecan_Creek
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Quote:
On 2011-11-21 15:42, RNK wrote:
Not everyone ia a Christian is correct. On the same token, Cristmas is because of Christ- so to call it a holiday is actually incorrect. And those who aren't christian- why would they celebrate Christmas? If they don't believe then why celebrate a holiday in which they have no belief in how it came about? I am neither praising or bashing Christians- I am just speaking openly in how I see it. I mean- those of us who are not jewish do not celebrate hannukah(sp?)- correct? So- I guess the bottom line is that I believe you should be able to call it for what it is and how it came about- Christ= Christmas! It's a shame that in our society the gov't is trying to take God out of the picture and in response- look how our society keeps degrading(in the USA anyway).

Best,
RNK

My only point is that there are multiple holidays that different religions super imposed on the winter soltice. To single out one and demand it is more important than the rest or to assume that everyone must celebrate Christmas because they buy a soltice tree is demeaning to those with different beliefs.

By all means if you are performing at a Christmas party it would be silly not to have all the merry Christmas silks your stocking change bag could hold.

Would it be right to demand to be able to say merry Christmas at a Jewish kids birthday party on December 18th?

As far as "this is a christian nation" thing that seems to be so popular now. Well, the facts just don't support it. But that's not a discussion for this board.

As a magic related topic basically if the guy or gal writing the check wants me to say " Farfegnugen" guess what I'm sayin...

HAPPY FESTIVUS TO ALL.
Sam Sandler
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Although I understand what is being said it is Christmas! why do you think people line up around the best buy and Walmart it aint for Chanukah!

truth be told here the problem is that this country was founded on Christian principles and the majority of the country celebrates Christmas. we as a country are walking away from our founding fathers and their vision of what our country should be by now!

Not to be able to say Christmas in a school is ridicalous! they say that one Jewish kid is offended that some one said Merry Christmas. what about the 500 students that do celebrate Chrsitmas. are we to just throw it all away for the one kid. when in reality its the partents making a big stink

this political correctness is out of control and will destroy the fabric of this country if it is allowed to continue.

gorowing up there were no problems in my neighborhood mixed with Jews, christians, and catholics what has happened here why are we being so stupid these days. there are only 2 true holidays at this time of year Chanukah and Christmas. And yes I understand not every one celabrates Christmas as not every one celebrates Chanukah but that is not the point. the point is that the majority celebrate Christmas and the majority of the store sales are for Christmas and the majority of the decorations are for Christmas guess what it's Christmas time.

its a fricken Christmas tree not a holiday tree!!

sorry but this really gets to me. when I am told I can not say merry Christmas in schools I still say it. when they ask why I did I explain that although you want to be politically correct I believe in Common sense. most of the time I will say Merry Christmas and Happy Chanukah as those are the two major holidays.

so HappyRamaHanuKwasmas every one!!

sam
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Pecan_Creek
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Quote:
On 2011-11-21 16:51, Sam Sandler wrote:

its a fricken christmas tree not a holiday tree!!

http://www.christmastreehistory.net/pagan
makeupguy
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Thomas Jefferson was not a christian.. and he had more to do with the founding of our country than any other single person..

The founding fathers in general were not WASPS..

sorry to pop the old religion bubble..

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

Since we are primarily COMMERCIAL entertainers.. do you not think it's the best idea to appeal to your clients? Personal beliefs rarely have anything to do with most commercial ventures....
Sam Sandler
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I disagree many of the founding fathers were indeed christians and take a strole thru the washington monument it is filled with bible verses etched on the walls that's just one of many things.

as for being commercial I respect every ones thoughts and feelings and religion. Do I disagree with some of them - sure but I still love them as scripture say they will know we are believers by our love.
I perform each year at this time for Jewish events, christian events, and others and YES I most certainly respect them and appeal to them.

what I am trying to say is that over the years it seems that many are trying to remove "christmas" all together. every day some one complains that some one said Merry Christmas to them. you know what suck it up. yea I am a bit peeved but this and my post obviously shows it.
hey even Wal mart decided this year to put MERRY CHRISTMAS back in the stores from all the Backlash it has received for removing it.

look if some one in the mall or McDonalds drive thru says merry christmas (by the way that is what time of year it is) and that most people celabrate christmas then why do those that don't get upset. not all of them do but some seem to get so angry its nuts.

I personally think it is only a very few that feel this way and make a big stink about it.

life goes on and our country will continue to walk away from God and the principles our country was founded on.

I don't want to get in a big argument we each have our own feelings on this matter I am just saddened to see what is happening these days.

sam

"I, too, have made a wee-little book from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus; it is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus".

Thomas Jefferson
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Pecan_Creek
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I don't get upset when someone says merry christmas, most normal people don't. But in a commercial or school situaion all people must be considered. Especially in the context of pleasing a paying client like in the OP's post.

Since we are on the topic of "Our Venerable Founding Fathers"

This is a democracy. The beloved founding fathers spoke quite clearly about the tyranny of the majority.

But no one can stop the tyranny of the paycheck!

I too am saddened to see what is happening these days. But probably for a different reason.

Good luck and

Happy Festivus
Sam Sandler
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Pecan you are right when in schools I understand the need to be more "understanding" to those there as not all celebrate christmas, or chanukah
I guess what erks me is that for those that want to say Merry Christmas they become afraid to do so a they might be stoned - ok maybe not stoned but I have seen people lash out at some one for simply wishing them them a Merry Christmas and that is so sad.

what is funny is that I am actauly performing at a huge Chanuaka Party this year on Christmas yup big show on Decemeber 25th. it will be a great time.

sam
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Pecan_Creek
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Well, If someone lashes out when another wishes them happy anything then that's a symptom of the coarsening of society that I think all sides of the political spectrum can agree is what is really wrong with our culture right now.Its just a few outlets like to prey on peoples fears to keep us at eachothers throats while they run off with the country.

Good luck on you Chanukamas show!

Is it in a Chinese restaurant?
MichaelCGM
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The Christmas argument is the creation of a minority of Americans who will do anything to bend the rest of the nation to their personal bent against anything that might even suggest Christ. That being said, as performers, it's our job to please the client. If I'm booked for a "Christmas Party," I feel fine saying Merry Christmas. If I'm booked for a "Hanukkah" celebration (Festival of the Lights), I feel fine saying Happy Hanukkah. If my client is having a "Holiday Party," of course I'm going to say Happy Holidays. After all, if I'm booked for a "Birthday Party," and the kid's birthday is on or around December 25th, I'm going to say Happy Birthday - not Merry Christmas. So - what are you booked for? :o)
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Sam Sandler
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No its in a Synagogue it is a big Chanukah party and this year it falls duing christmas from december 20thru sundown dec 28th.

and now I wont be saying merry christmas or doing any of my christmas tricks at the show as that would be disrespectful.

it will be a fun time and I do plan to do some chanukah themed magic tricks for them

sam
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TomFoolery
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If you strip Christmas down to its bare bones what do you get?

The celebration of a birth of a baby (to some a very special baby including myself)

Every religion even atheists celebrate the birth of a baby.

My local Hindu shop keeper loves Christmas it his best time of year for business he is not offended when wished Happy Christmas in the same way I am not offended if I perform say for another religion.
Billy Bo
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Ha, yet another example of how religion can control and divide people. However being a massive Atheist I still celebrate Christmas and always have but only In the sense of its a great family oriented time of year.
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Merry Christmas to all of you. Smile
:xmastree: Smile
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It seams strange to me that in the states you have a big problem with Christmas/Holidays. In the UK which is a much less christian country and a very multi cultural one, we all tend to wish each other happy christmas. It's just the standard name we give to the mid winter festival.
Am I allowed to say happy christmas if I'm an athiest?
Leland
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So when you're hired to do a Christmas show, do you perform a "Christmas Show" or a "Holiday Show"? Or are they expecting a "Christian Show"?

I do a Christmas show which is really a Holiday show and since I'm not religious I hadn't considered the "Christian" in "Christmas". Interesting topic, looks like it depends on your belief what you're going to offer them. I'd like to hear some opinions.
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Paul Rathbun
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Quote:
On 2011-11-21 18:35, makeupguy wrote:
Thomas Jefferson was not a christian.. and he had more to do with the founding of our country than any other single person..

The founding fathers in general were not WASPS..

sorry to pop the old religion bubble..

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

Since we are primarily COMMERCIAL entertainers.. do you not think it's the best idea to appeal to your clients? Personal beliefs rarely have anything to do with most commercial ventures....


Nobody said the founding fathers were Christians. But the pilgrims/puritans who travelled over for religious freedom were. I think the people that suffered and died had just as much (if not more) to do with founding this country as Jefferson. They certainly sacrificed more.
TonyB2009
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I am an atheist and I am quite happy with Happy Christmas. Christmas began as a pagan celebration of the winter solstice, which was taken over by the christians. Most of the important elements of the celebration were created by Charles Dickens, Coco Cola, and Macey's. People of other cultures understand that. When we celebrate Christmas we celebrate fellowship and happy childhoods.

Most people, whatever their religion, are happy to observe a secular Christmas. Many religions have their own celebrations at that time of year, which is fine too. As I don't mention religion in my Christmas shows I will not cause offence to anyone.

I was in Abu Dhabi a few years ago on the day Ramadan began. There were great street parties that night, and I was made welcome everywhere - dragged in by strangers and given food and sweets. There was bunting everywhere, and even trees! No one cared that I was not a Muslim. They were celebrating their common humanity and their culture, and it was a very inclusive occasion.

I think the problem is sometimes school administrators and public servants assume we will take offence at things that no one except an extreme bigot will take offence about. And I don't think we should have a problem with offending the bigots!
RNK
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Quote:
On 2011-11-21 16:13, Pecan_Creek wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-11-21 15:42, RNK wrote:
Not everyone ia a Christian is correct. On the same token, Cristmas is because of Christ- so to call it a holiday is actually incorrect. And those who aren't christian- why would they celebrate Christmas? If they don't believe then why celebrate a holiday in which they have no belief in how it came about? I am neither praising or bashing Christians- I am just speaking openly in how I see it. I mean- those of us who are not jewish do not celebrate hannukah(sp?)- correct? So- I guess the bottom line is that I believe you should be able to call it for what it is and how it came about- Christ= Christmas! It's a shame that in our society the gov't is trying to take God out of the picture and in response- look how our society keeps degrading(in the USA anyway).

Best,
RNK

My only point is that there are multiple holidays that different religions super imposed on the winter soltice. To single out one and demand it is more important than the rest or to assume that everyone must celebrate christmas becuase they buy a soltice tree is demeaning to those with different beliefs.

By all means if you are performing at a christmas party it would be silly not to have all the merry christmas silks your stocking chage bag could hold.

Would it be right to demand to be able to say merry christmas at a jewish kids birthday party on December 18th?

As far as "this is a christian nation" thing that seems to be so poular now. Well, the facts just don't support it. But that's not a discussion for this board.

As a magic related topic basically if the guy or gal writing the check wants me to say " Farfegnugen" guess what I'm sayin...

HAPPY FESTIVUS TO ALL.

All I'm saying is that the facts do support it- our country was founded and based with the saying, "Under God". This is in our Pledge of Allegiance. So, yes- our country was founded based on Christian values and beliefs.

Best,
RNK
Quote:
On 2011-11-21 18:35, makeupguy wrote:
Thomas Jefferson was not a christian.. and he had more to do with the founding of our country than any other single person..

The founding fathers in general were not WASPS..

sorry to pop the old religion bubble..

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

Since we are primarily COMMERCIAL entertainers.. do you not think it's the best idea to appeal to your clients? Personal beliefs rarely have anything to do with most commercial ventures....

Again- why has our pledge to our nation always been- "Under God". I am not being a religious thumper- only stating facts.

RNK
jackturk
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I am a Christian and have no problem saying so (the problem comes in living up to that label - a totally different challenge). Having made that clear, you always want to please the client and respect
their wishes as best you can.

If they're hiring you for a Hannukah event, you don't wish everyone Merry Christmas - that would be rude. If they're hiring you for a "Holiday" event, you say "Happy Holidays." If they're hiring you for a "Christmas Show" then I think you can say "Merry Christmas" and jingle all the way to the bank.

Respect the client and provide the service asked for.

If your personal beliefs conflict with the values you need to promote to please the organizers, then don't do the event.

BTW Happy Thanksgiving!
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To be honest, I don't care. It does not hurt me. I am Christian. There is a lot of Muslim and Jews near me. I get calls for all type of religious holidays. When Muslims celebrate Eid, I want to please them so I use Happy Eid as the magic word. When Jews celebrate Purim, I use Happy Purim as the magic word with ease. I just want to make sure they are happy so I will get paid.
RNK
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Quote:
On 2011-11-22 09:39, jackturk wrote:
I am a Christian and have no problem saying so (the problem comes in living
up to that label - a totally different challenge).

Having made that clear, you always want to please the client and respect
their wishes as best you can.

If they're hiring you for a Hannukah event, you don't wish everyone
Merry Christmas - that would be rude. If they're hiring you for a "Holiday" event,
you say "Happy Holidays." If they're hiring you for a "Christmas Show" then I
think you can say "Merry Christmas" and jingle all the way to the bank.

Respect the client and provide the service asked for.

If your personal beliefs conflict with the values you need to promote to
please the organizers, then don't do the event.

BTW Happy Thanksgiving!

Well put!
Mike Maturen
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Sam:

I agree 100% with your post...but just a slight correction. Christians and Catholics are NOT two separate groups. Catholics ARE Christians...in fact, they were the first Christians.

Perhaps a better line would be "Jews, Protestants and Catholics".

Mike
Quote:
growing up there were no problems in my neighborhood mixed with Jews, Christians, and Catholics what has happened here why are we being so stupid these days.

RNK:

I am a Christian and believe as you do...that we were founded based on Judeo-Christian beliefs. However, I wanted to correct on factual error.

The Pledge of Allegiance did NOT contain the words "under God" until 1954. See the following from Wikipedia:

"The Pledge of Allegiance of the United States is an expression of loyalty to the federal flag and the republic of the United States of America, originally composed by Christian Socialist Francis Bellamy in 1892 and formally adopted by Congress as the pledge in 1942. The Pledge has been modified four times since its composition, with the most recent change adding the words "under God" in 1954."
Quote:
Again- why has our pledge to our nation always been- "Under God". I am not being a religious thumper- only stating facts.

RNK
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Payne
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Quote:
On 2011-11-22 08:47, RNK wrote:

Again- why has our pledge to our nation always been- "Under God". I am not being a religious thumper- only stating facts.

RNK

Our pledge has only contained the phrase "under god" since 1954. The original pledge, written in 1892 by Christian Socialist Francis Bellamy contained no pleading to a higher power.

In god we trust was only added to our coins during the Civil War. There were those who felt that the recent battle between the states was due to us leaving the deities name out of our founding documents. It didn't become a legal requirement for the phrase, which many feel is unconstitutional, to be put on our coinage until 1954. It didn't appear on paper currency until 1957.

Our National motto used to be E Pluribus Unum, Out of Many One
Quote:
On 2011-11-22 08:08, Paul Rathbun wrote:

But the pilgrims/puritans who travelled over for religious freedom were.

Unfortunately for many sects the only religious freedom the wished for was their own. They were more than happy to outlaw opposing faiths. Quakerism for one was outlawed in many of the early colonies. Many Puritans didn't celebrate Christmas either. So fortunately for us our founding fathers saw the dangers of religious extremism that could be brought about by having a state sponsored religion and thus established this country as a secular state.

The United States was founded by people of a Christian Faith but it is not a Christian Nation. There is a difference.
I contend that we are both atheists.
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I tell all my employees, if you don't believe in Christmas, just don't cash your Christmas bonus check.

:)

Tom
Take care and by all means, stay inspired.

Tom Boleware
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