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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Trick coin trickery » » Copper Silver Brass vs. Hopping Halves (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

volto
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Which do you do, and why?

I think HH is suited to a "magic" presentation and CSB is suited to a gambling presentation, so (since my material is all presentented as magic) HH is the one for me.

I do Hopping Halves (to open) a lot and I was trying to think of ways of changing it around, so I recently tried switching it for Copper Silver Brass - obviously not the same effect, but I'd sort of filed them away in the same mental bucket. Having properly taken CSB out for a test drive, it's surprising how much they differ. My HH is very quick - show two coins, close hand, take one away, open hand, there are two coins again. Repeat. I used to do a long spiel but now I just repeat the exact same line and the repetition combined with the magic is inherently funny. This seems to go over very well. Something simple and remarkable for them to look at and an easy laugh to break the ice, prior to something else that involves them a little more.

I've found CSB very hard to present as "magic". The best routine I've seen is Doc Eason's, which is a fast-talking gambling presentation, challenging the audience, and takes place partly in their hands. I think CSB naturally lends itself to this kind of presentation. Asking the audience to remember three things is at least two things too many. So to keep things clear, they're told to follow one coin. At this point, it's a monte. The coin switches with the other two, possibly with a "one coin becomes all three" or an "all coins vanish" ending. If you try to do the "magic" presentation, I've found it gets a little confusing - even if you cut it right down, it's not really clear to the audience what's supposed to be happening. The three coins are distracting, and the effect isn't clarified and reinforced by repetition the same way as HH. But presented as a game of "follow the half", it's suddenly easier and a lot more fun. If they're really following what's going on, the transpositions seem totally impossible - more powerful than HH because three coins are moving each time. But they need be paying attention, which means they need to be personally involved, which means they need to be challenged. And then you get into the whole question of how to have the spectator lose without looking like a loser.

I guess another way of putting this is that I think you can use HH as an opener, since the effect can be visual and obvious, but I think CSB is more of a builder, since the effect is more complex and requires more attention from the audience.

I'd be really interested in an ungimmicked Hopping Halves routine - I've seen a few, but they all seemed dangerously obvious. I guess that's a subject for another thread.
Merc Man
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Difficult question really Volto my old mate - as you are referring to two entirely different coin effects. For what it's worth, here's my view.

Hopping Halves: is a very good trick (especially for standing/strolling) BUT needs the right presentation angle; and possibly a stronger kicker finale - such as producing a jumbo half dollar. I don't think that simply showing your hand empty at the end is a strong enough conclusion; nor does any justice to the excellent ongoing plot (of a coin continually returning) throughout.

CSB: I used to perform the 'Chinese Bit' but found it very difficult to follow - from the audience's perspective. Partly, I figured that when you ask, for example, "what's in my left hand" - well think about it - YOUR left is on THEIR right (as they are facing you) so you've potentially got confusion; or at the very least, something that they need to think hard about - thus potentially diminishing their enjoyment. Maybe it was down to my lack of experience at the time but 30 odd years back, it never got the reaction that I thought it should. Dare I say that what is considered to be a coin classic may actually be bordering on 'magician's magic'? I really don't know.

However, what I DO know, is that a basic Copper Silver routine involving transformations, etc. IS definitely easier to follow AND just as magical - especially if you engage the hand(s) of a spectator(s) throughout.
Barry Allen

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Atom3339
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It's all according to your style. There are standard routines for both, but endless possibilities for using the gimmicks---just ask David Neighbors! I'd continue to modify your routines to fit your style.
TH

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bowers
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I really like both effects and their are
endless routeins for each one. every time
I perform these I get good reactions from
both effects.
todd
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I use a routine by Scott Guinn called "Pouched CSB" which uses a modified pouch. However I use the Himber Pouch from The Ambitious Card. Has a few unique sleights that you don’t usually see with CSB. Works well for me - and it's not a gambling presentation at all.

Thanks!

Jim
volto
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Todd - that's good to hear. I definitely get a stronger reaction from HH, but I think I'm limiting CSB too much in the way I'm using it.
Jim - Doh. My bad. I guess I just made the mistake that lots of folks here make, of not actually reading the books I already own. Smile
That's an excellent routine. And now that I've reread it, that pouch is a cool idea too, with broader applications. And a really practical way of carrying the coins. I see what you mean about it not being a gambling presentation. I'll find, make or borrow a purse like that and give it a go.
This prompted me to go and look again at Mr. Guinn's other excellent material - "Assertive Positive Negative" is a wonderful little impromptu bit, his ring and string routine is great, and his three ball routine "Having a ball" is excellent too. The three ball routine in particular is something I was meaning to get around to, and never did. I definitely will, now. Awesome stuff. Cheers Jim, and thank you Scott!
Vlad_77
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Hi Volto,

Both are excellent effects as Merc Man has stated. Here are some cool suggestions to show what can be done with these sets:

Jason Madsen has a download available called "Down the Rabbit Hole," It's three effects for HH.
Demo here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XicheRaM140

"Sun and Monn" by Albert Goshman is in Bobo and can be done with HH. In fact, the instructions are also on the Johnson printed instructions for HH.

For those of you who do NOT have HH, check out "Hippity Cop" by Jamy Ian Swiss in the "red" Apocalypse volume. No gaffs and it is the same effect as HH.

In the great book The Commercial Magic of J.C. Wagner you will find the COMPLETE routine for CSB. Apparently the routine included with the Johnson set was not the complete Wagner routine.

John Bannon has a cool effect called "A Mystery on the Aztec Orient Express" in Smoke and Mirrors. It's a very nice routine.

Ahimsa,
Vlad
volto
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Vlad - wow. That Apocalypse "Hippity Cop" routine should go straight into your "Classic Periodicals" thread in the Secret Sessions. In fact, I just put it in.
That's exactly what I was looking for in an ungimmicked HH. Simple application of basic sleights, very open displays and exactly the same effect as the gimmicked version. You know it's a great routine when the moment you read it you kick yourself and say "now, why didn't I think of that?!?".
I'll chase up your other references too. Thanks!
Vlad_77
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Quote:
On 2011-11-30 04:41, volto wrote:
Vlad - wow. That Apocalypse "Hippity Cop" routine should go straight into your "Classic Periodicals" thread in the Secret Sessions. In fact, I just put it in.
That's exactly what I was looking for in an ungimmicked HH. Simple application of basic sleights, very open displays and exactly the same effect as the gimmicked version. You know it's a great routine when the moment you read it you kick yourself and say "now, why didn't I think of that?!?".
I'll chase up your other references too. Thanks!


Volto,

Thanks for putting the reference in the thread! I am really hoping the coin guys will pay a visit. There ARE a number of interesting coin items there already.

You are so right in your thoughts about Jamy Ian Swiss' Hippity Cop. I really like YOUR suggestion in the thread about adapting the routine to other objects. So, thanks for YOUR tip!

Ahimsa,
Vlad
J-Mac
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Checking Hippity Cop out now. Thanks for the reference Vlad!

Jim
Vlad_77
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My pleasure Jim!

Vlad
Merc Man
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Vlad - thanks also for the referral to Jason Madsen's excellent work.

I'm actually contemplating signing into Paypal and buying something for once - instead of just moaning about it! Smile

Very impressive - love his thinking and creativity.
Barry Allen

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Vlad_77
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Quote:
On 2011-11-30 17:18, Merc Man wrote:
Vlad - thanks also for the referral to Jason Madsen's excellent work.

I'm actually contemplating signing into Paypal and buying something for once - instead of just moaning about it! Smile

Very impressive - love his thinking and creativity.

Merc Man,

Posted: Dec 5, 2011 8:52pm
Found yet ANOTHER cool routine with C/S/B and my British friends will be happy because the book that it's in seems to have flown under the radar of many United States magicians.

If you have The Dave Campbell Legacy have a look inside - and no I am not writing the name of the effect.

Ahimsa,
Vlad

You're most welcome!

Vlad
David Neighbors
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Quote:
On 2011-11-28 12:14, Atom3339 wrote:
It's all according to your style. There are standard routines for both, but endless possibilities for using the gimmicks---just ask David Neighbors! I'd continue to modify your routines to fit your style.


Thanks Atom,
Yea there are a lot of Great stuff that can be done with both! On hopping Half. Most people ask me what to do when they want to see the coins at the start or the routine? That's why I came up with hop a long Half! You start off with two real coins. And ring the gaff in as you go! Also as I am using the rattle Gimmick, so You get to hear the coins come back, As well as see the coins come back! ( It's in my Sound Routines Book! )

As for The C.S.B. gaff. I have a ton of stuff using it! as for change routines. One where all the coins vanish at the end! And one where ALL 3 COINS change at the end( and you end up clean!) And again this uses the Rattle gimmick So you hear the coins change places, as well as see the coins change places! ( this too is in the sound routines book!)

And there is also stuff like my SANDY routine That was talked about a lot here a while back!!! ( It's a coins across, Change routine, And the 3 coins jump back to the coin purse all at once. All rolled together!)

And there is so much more you can do with it! 4-2-1 and no card assemblies, Coins through the table, Portable hole stuff, And a purse frame routine where they appear, change places, And vanish at the end! And that's just off the top of my head! Smile

OK thanks a lot gang!

Best David Neighbors
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Sir Richard
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I haven't done HH yet even though I own a set. It's my bad as I will need to find a good routine for it. There have been some good leads mentioned here that I will look into. I also own CSB which I use with the routine that Bob Sheets shows on "Hospitality, Volume 2." I see that you also didn't mention "2 Copper, One Silver," Which I own to do Bill Malone's cool routine. Smile

Sir Richard.
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David Neighbors
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If you are Talking About Sandy That's Mine! And Bill say so on the DVD! he has been doing it for 20 years! I put it out in my book coinjurering in 1978! Myself I use A Solid C.S.B. IE. The brass Coin is a Solid Coin with no hole in it! So I get the best Of both Worlds! And can do a lot more with just one set! Smile
Sir Richard
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Quote:
On 2011-12-06 13:38, David Neighbors wrote:
If you are Talking About Sandy That's Mine! And Bill say so on the DVD! he has been doing it for 20 years! I put it out in my book coinjurering in 1978! My self I use A Solid C.S.B. IE. The brass Coin is a Solid Coin with no hole in it! So I get the best Of both Worlds! And can do a lot more with just one set! Smile
I stand corrected...you are right of course, and it's a great routine!

Sir Richard.
"In the land of Murphy there is but ONE law!"
David Neighbors
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Thanks Sir Richard,

I also Have A Stand-up no table handling. If you can Backpalm Or Backclip? It's in "Stand and Deliver Notes " OK Later Gang!
MysticJohn
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I like both sets of coins however, I tend to use Hopping more so I can introduce more coins at the end and go into other routines or just end there.

But both routines and depending what you do with them will get great reactions, if you do you homework and work out good presentation and routines.
Jeffrey Cowan
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Bob Sheets has an excellent CSB routine with the traditional set on the "Bob Does Hospitality Volume 2" that Bob Kohler produced. See https://www.bobkohlermagic.com/view-product.cfm?productID=39 (and note that it's now on sale).

If you've got some chops, you should investigate Bob Kohler's CopSilBrass routine, which DOES NOT use the set. One of the most magical coin routines you'll ever see.
Lawrence O
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Collective. World's Greatest Magic: Gaffed Coins DVD

Bannon, John. The Mystery on the Aztec-Orient Express. Smoke and Mirrors p 61

Brewer, Doug. Backhanded The Unexpected Visitor. DVD and Book the effect is shown using a tabled card (could be a credit card instead of the gag which supplies the misdirection)

Coles, Jim. Quick Change. 41 page

Derek Dingle. Copper Silver Brass. The complete works of Derek Dingle p 62.

Diamond, Paul: Copper Silver Brass: video advertising on p 899 of Pabular

Duffie, Peter: The Dave Campbell Legacy part 6 Miscellaneous tricks without playing cards

Eason Doc: Copper/Silver/Brass Doc Eason's Bar Magic DVD Vol.3 Transposition-widely acclaimed as the definitive version.

Fisher, Cody: Real World CSB. The unforgettable coin magic of Cody Fisher. Very nice routine which ends up clean with three coins which are looking as they should. In between three phases are well structured.

Kam, Curtis: Palms of Steel DVD 3 & Cashablanca Triple Alliance

Kohler, Bob. Lecture Video (New release 2002) It 's not what you think! This is a routine Bob used to baffle some of the finest close-up workers in the world, including Larry Jennings - he'll fool you too*****
http://www.internationalmagic.com/acatal......tml#a393

Kurtz, Gary. Body heat. Unexplainable acts. 1990. p. 32 using Connie Hayden gimmick and a small purse.

Green, Paul: Two Copper Silver. In The Trenches With Paul Green DVD. An eye-popping coin routine with the ever-popular 2 Copper Silver coin set (it also works with Silver, Copper, Brass). There are three distinct transpositions and it’s easy to do. Features Paul’s ‘Pouch Switch’ that elegantly ditches the gaffs and leaves you clean as a whistle. Even though presented as Copper Silver routine the trick works perfectly for Copper Silver Brass

Latta, Geoffrey: Copsilbrass. Richard Kaufman’s Coin Magic. (standing).

Lewis, James: Foreign Exchange. Million Dollar Mysteries. Video. His copper silver brass routine is a marvel

Malone, Bill: Here I go again Vol 2 DVD Keeping My Money Safe! - S.A.N.D.Y. This is an absolutely unbelievable Coins Across by Bill’s friend, Dave Neighbors. Take the coins out oft he purse, gets them checked as the purse is checked. Places them back in the purse with the CSB set and asks which coin she would choose. Takes out another one as the most often mentioned, then the chosen one then the third one before closing the purse which is slid aside. Gag about hypnotizing his hand tob e able to justify the fist position fort he pop over move. First coin placed in. Then the second then the gimmick which is stolen. Now the coins travel across one by one flashing the empty left hand in the process. Then the coins are replaced one by one suggesting the the last one the half dollar got stolen which is shown to be the case. But to claim it is an illusion the Half dollar changes for the two foreign goins as the coin in the right hand is shown to be the half dollar. Fort he third time, the coins are replaced but the last one the half dollar I staken back and brought to the pocket. Asked which coins are remaining in the hand the reply is none because the coins are back into the purse.

McClintock, Reed: Knucklebusters Vol # 2 Routine #1: Three with CSB: Two cards are selected from a deck and crossed one on top of the other on a close up pad. Three coins are removed from a coin purse (one is copper, one is silver, one is brass with a hole in it). The purse is placed at the rear center of the mat. The coins are tossed into the left hand. The left hand is opened to show only the copper and brass coins, the silver magically appears under the two cards on the table (Al Schneider style). The silver coin is picked up by one of the cards, and tossed into the left hand. The left hand shows the coin both sides, and replaces it on the mat. Both cards are picked up and the corners of both cards are placed onto the silver coin, concealing it. The spectator is given a free choice as to what coin (copper or brass) will travel under a card next. Each coin is picked up one at a time and placed into the left hand. The left hand is opened to show that the spectator’s coin is gone. The cards are lifted and the spectator’s coin is now with the silver coin. One card is placed back over the two coins, and one card is placed to the rear right of the close up pad. The final coin is held at the fingertips. The right hand takes the coin and tosses it toward the card covering the coins. The coin vanishes. The spectator turns over the card to witness all three coins under the card. The card is placed to the rear left of the close up pad. The coins are all picked up into the left hand. The right hand takes out the silver coin, and the left hand shows the copper and brass. The hands close. The left hand now has the silver coin! The silver coin is waved over the right fist and the hand is opened to show it is empty. The silver coin is placed back into a hand, is squeezed and it also vanishes. The coins magically re-appear, one under one card, one under the other card, and one under the coin purse.
This is a very nice presentation based upon Gary Kurtz’ “Trio-N-Three”. Part of what made Gary Kurtz routine work is that he was using Connie Hayden’s 2 copper, 1 silver gimmick which is the precursor to the CSB gaff. One thing that we could do with the Connie Hayden gimmick is to use the coin as a double face coin as well. The CSB gaff adds complexity by introducing another metal coin, that has a hole in it. The contrast of the three coins is much better, but the hole in the gimmick partially restricts the ability to use it as a double face coin.

Mentzer, Jerry: Close Up Cavalcade by Jerry Mentzer p 74 A sort of three way spellbound routine with a handkerchief. It is done with poker chips which can be replaced by a copper coin, a gold coin and a C/S coin.

Miller, Tony. “Cheap Way” Cop/Sil/Brass. Apocalypse Vol VIII # 1 p 1016. A routine performed without any shell or any other gimmick than a C/S coin.

Norman, Karl. Close up table magic DVD. The Coin Collection: A copper, a silver, and a brass coin jump from hand to hand, appear in a box, change places with the box and for a finale the box becomes a solid slug of brass.

Pierce, Lance: See Ess Bee: A fantastic routine involving a purse, an Okito coin box and CSB with very smart moves visible at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUZfPOmN0B8

Prince, Gordon: Millenium coins.

Regal, David: Trans-location. Trans-location It is a sort of coins across with a silver, a copper and a Chinese coin. Approaching Magic.

Roman, Fernando: CSB on the Fly. Richard Kaufman’s Coin Magic p 207.

Sheets, Bob:

Roth, David: Chinese Copper Silver. Ultimate Coin Magic DVD #1

Shryock, John: Copper, silver, brass “Trio”. Live at Caesars Magical Empire DVD

Wagner, J. C. 2 Copper-1 Silver Wagner's more commercial magic DVD.: A copper, silver, brass coin routine where the three different coins accomplish impossible transpositions from hand to hand.

Watkins, Dan. Copper Silver Brass. Coin Man Walking DVD. Bob Kohler.

York, Scott: Done with a copper/silver and two normal different coins using the Tenkai Pinch

One silver two copper
Gibson, Eddie: Chinese Bit. Marketed item. Three previously examined coins are used: an American Half Dollar, an old-type English Penny and a Chinese coin. The Penny and Chinese coin are placed in the right hand and the Half Dollar in the left. Without any suspicious moves the coins are shown to have transposed: the Half Dollar appears in the right hand and the Penny and Chinese coin in the left. The Penny is then placed in the pocket, but it instantly returns to the hand, while the Half Dollar vanishes from the hand and appears in the pocket. The Chinese coin is placed in the pocket, the Penny in the left hand and the Half Dollar in the right. Seconds later the Half Dollar is seen resting in the left hand while the Penny is in the right hand. This is repeated once again but this time the Chinese coin appears next to the Penny in the right hand. The Half Dollar is then placed in the right hand and the Penny and Chinese coin in the left. Both hands are closed and instantly opened to reveal the Half Dollar in the left hand and the Penny and Chinese coin in the right. This is repeated twice more and then the coins are handed out once again to be examined.

Green, Paul: In the trenches. 2 Copper Silver. An eye-popping coin routine with the ever-popular 2 Copper Silver coin set (it also works with Silver, Copper, Brass). There are three distinct transpositions and it’s easy to do. Features Paul’s ‘Pouch Switch’ that elegantly ditches the gaffs and leaves you clean as a whistle.

Riding, Joe: Chinese bit. Marketed item by Ken Brooke and made up to date by Joe Stevens Magic Emporium http://www.stevensmagic.com/shopping/shopexd.asp?id=6317

McCallion, Lance: Copper-Silver-Gold http://www.zyworld.com/coinpurse/Articles78.htm
Transposition effect with a Susan B. Anthony dollar, English, copper 2-pence piece, and the new Sacagewea Gold dollar. Complex and more technical than other versions, but it looks great, and has an awesome climax.

Shryock, John: Live at Ceasar's Magical Empire. Video. John's performance in the close up room of the Caesar's Magical Empire in 2002. Eight routines, 1.5 hours. Includes Copper Silver Brass Trio,

Sheets, Bob: Bob Does Hospitality. DVD A routine where the coins don't go to the pocket.
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