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Gary Kosnitzky
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This is the original shell game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7gp1WNRG6c

Enjoy.
Rediscover a lost art.

www.jadoosmagic.com
Bluesman
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He did a good job on it. But the girl couldn't see anything where she was sitting at.
luvisi
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This may also be of interest: http://books.google.com/books?id=jx3TQ5x......&f=false

Andru
Pop Haydn
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Thimble-Rig, the original version of the shell game, came from our Western version of Cups and Balls. It first appeared in England in the 17th or 18th centuries. Thimble-rig probably became the "shell game" in the United States in the 19th Century. The description of the the take down cups and balls in Robert-Houdin's "Card Sharpers" is the exact ploy often used in the shell game and thimble-rig, and was probably just one of many scams that made the cups and balls a scam parading as entertainment.
luvisi
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This site puts it at least as far back as the 17th century: http://www.threeshellgame.com/allure.htm

I believe this is the story to which Whit is referring: http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924026......mode/1up

Andru
Pop Haydn
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Thanks, Andru, that is the citation from Robert-Houdin.
Gary Kosnitzky
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What I find very interesting is that in 3rd century India they were not only practicing sleight of hand but also recommending that all men acquire this skill.
The Kamasutra refers to Magic and specifically sleight of hand over 200 years before the ancient Greek sophist Alciphron wrote about it.

To quote Prof. Lee Siegel:

“Prestidigitational techniques for close-up magic and parlor conjuring had been cultivated into skills the time of the Kamasutra (c. third century C.E.), wherein various sorts of legerdemain are enumerated among the sixty-four arts that were de rigeur for sophisticated ladies and gentlemen in ancient India (1.3).”

Lee Siegel - Net of Magic: Wonders and Deceptions in India , page 153.

For your own curiousity all 64 arts can be found listed here in English:
http://tamilelibrary.org/teli/arts.html

It is a possibility that the Hindu Cups and Balls may predate the 'modern' cups and balls and may also be the original shell game.
All the conditions are perfect for that scenario.
Rediscover a lost art.

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Pop Haydn
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Do you have any evidence that the Hindu Cups and Balls was used as a takedown scam?

BTW, thanks for the reference. That is very intriguing.

Seneca's 45th Epistle to Lucilius (4 BCE-65 CE) describes the cups and balls as a magic trick in the first century.
Gary Kosnitzky
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Quote:
On 2012-01-21 13:21, Pop Haydn wrote:
Do you have any evidence that the Hindu Cups and Balls was used as a takedown scam?

BTW, thanks for the reference. That is very intriguing.

Seneca's 45th Epistle to Lucilius (4 BCE-65 CE) describes the cups and balls as a magic trick in the first century.


Seneca said:
“Such quibbles are just as harmlessly deceptive as the juggler's cup and dice, in which it is the very trickery that pleases me. But show me how the trick is done, and I have lost my interest therein."

I do not see any description remotely close to the Cups and Balls concept we are discussing.
He is not even discussing Magic.
He is a philosopher and those words “ juggler's cup and dice” are merely being used as a metaphor to make a point that has nothing to do with Cups and Balls or magic.

There is absolutely no description of how the “cup and dice” are used or even if they are to be used together. It is pure speculation on your part.

Wikipedia is not a scholarly source of information.
Rediscover a lost art.

www.jadoosmagic.com
Pop Haydn
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"Show me how the trick is done, and I have lost my interest therein." I don't think that would apply to a game of chance.
Pop Haydn
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Do you have any evidence of the Hindu Cups being used as a gambling game before 1700?
Gary Kosnitzky
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I know nothing. Who does?
I only know 3 ancient traditional routines, and all the patter in Dravidian. If you ever need any information regarding the actual work it would be my pleasure.
Rediscover a lost art.

www.jadoosmagic.com
Pop Haydn
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That is very kind. Thank you. I admire your presentation.
Jerry
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Mr.Haydn, any chance of the thimble rig set being release/manufacture again (it is currently sold out)?

Jerry
Pop Haydn
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That was manufactured by Al Cohen. We bought all he had. We have no plans to put out a thimble rig set, though we hope someone will.
Jerry
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Mr. Haydn, may have the measurements of a standard thimble rig set (if there is such a thing), I may have a source?
I'll have to ask if they can make a set.

Jerry
Pop Haydn
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There is no standard. The 18th Century hustlers used real thimbles. Pewter thimbles would work. The brass set that we use to carry was just thimbles made of heavy brass--a little too small an interior for putting on a finger. They had the advantage of being heavy, and they were fairly stable with a wide base and lip. Thimbles that are heavy and stable (not likely to tip over) are the main thing. The moves are very different for the thimbles, more like cups and balls.
silverking
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Although the Al Cohen thimbles were pretty much the only game in town as far as a pro Thimble Rigging set, they were quite roughly finished........as not really finished at all!
Lots of tool marks, and ridges, not polished.
They look like they came right off the lathe, and into the package.
Whoever turned them certainly was no Jim Riser or Joe Porper.

Despite the above, I was happy to get one of the last Cohen sets, and used it quite a lot for a while.

...........Now if Jim Riser would make a set!..............
jakeg
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I have a set of thimbles that I got from Karl Norman about upteen years ago. They look like miniature Hindu Cups, and made out of brass. (I also have the original routine that went with them.) Although I seldom use them, they are pretty neat and handle real well. especially with the perfect pea.
Jake
I'm so old that by the time I get ready to do the show, I'm too tired to go on stage.
Pop Haydn
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I have a set of those as well, and a set of his heavy brass caps. They both handle very nicely on a good surface.
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