I don't know how familiar everyone is with De'vo's flipback (Deck or packet of cards goes from quasi dealer's grip to the back of the hand). Anyway, my question is this: I do it holding the deck between my pinky and thumb. However I saw someone doing it with their pinky and INDEX finger. I can do it fine right now, but I was just wondering where this version came from. Very peculiar.

That would be exposure of a marketed effect. Not cool.

Unless you bought his CD before they were sold out, you have no right to even THINK about performing this.

You're both right, he shouldn't be asking for the instructions to the flipback as it is unethical.

But, you have to ask yourselves, are you guys only jumping on his because it is De'vo's move? Don't get me wrong, De'vo is a cool guy and he has some killer concepts but don't defend the teaching and exposing of flourishes just because they are his.

Basically, what I'm saying is, jump on some one for wanting to learn the butterfly cut or the Charlier cut the same way you do for the flipback or your being a hypocrite.

Exactly what credentials are required to learn any flourish? Obviously before anyone learnt anything they knew nothing. So going by what has just been said, no one is allowed to learn anything unless they thought of it first - which is ridiculous.
Mark

Hey Kee,

If you didn't buy the cd, you should not perform the flipback. It's that simple. No need for smart remarks. People who bought the cd know better then to teach it. It's not our right to teach it. If De'vo wanted to teach you then that is another story. And I don't think De'vo would do that, so you will have to wait a while wait for a dvd with the flipback in it. I'm pretty sure De'vo has plans on releasing the flipback and a whole lot more in the future.

Flipback is also taught in Jerry Cestkowski's Encyclopedia of Playing Card Flourishes. http://www.flourishman.com

Well, I don't think you can really copyright a move, because someone might come up with it on their own. I figured out many tricks of my own later to see that other magicians were performing them. Also I saw it originally from somebody else before De'vo, so I didn't know it was his to begin with. Besides, the version I saw looks different from De'vo's anyway, so everyone just calm down.....

(For clarification, it was Rodney Reyes who I saw do this in his DVD Hardknocks, and he performs it different than De'vo. Go yell at him for not buying the CD)

Many people out there do it incorrectly, just like Rodney who admits to trying to learn it from watching De'vo. It's really easy spot the ones like Rodney who do it incorrectly! Funny how people try to say it is a different technique,... NO, it is WRONG technique. LOL

De'vo published it originally in the early 80s. Since De'vo released it on his website over 2 years ago, people all over the world have been imitating it! Now the Cobra is popping up at all the conventions I've been to, and on many sites. Wonder what's going to happen when the Heaven Display and the CTG are officially released with the CTG DVD??

Cardjinx

There is nothing wrong with figuring out moves on your own. I applaud anyone who can do that. What I think is wrong is when you have to ask for tips on something when we all know that it can be learned in the Encyclopedia. If you can figure it out on your own then you don't need any clarification.

If you are not going to go out and buy the merchandise then don't ask about the stuff you are trying to copy. Figure out your own way and be happy with that. Maybe you are reinventing the wheel, but that's just part of the process. Maybe you are inventing a new way to do it.

I see it as going out and seeing a magician perform some original material. Maybe you want to know how he did his stuff, so you go home and you figure out methods and then you start performing his effects even though you worked out your own methods. That is stealing!!! There is nothing wrong with flexing your creative juices, but once you take that guys material and start showing it to others just because "you figured it out" you become a thief!!

Maybe you like the moves that the guy is using. If they are not original moves then go out and buy the books that they are in and learn the moves. Then apply them to your own original routine.

I can see it now. In a few months some guy will be selling his version of the Flibback. "I'm selling this because I use a red backed bridge deck and I buff my finger nails"

Buy it and use it. If you don't buy it then keep your questions to yourself.

It wasn't meant to be a smart remark - I was just telling you what I think - which is, after all, what the Café is here for.



My thoughts exactly. If you wanted to kick a football like David Beckham you wouldn't sit down and say to yourself "Hmmm, I can't really do that, because it's David's move." You'd just go out there and try and do it. And you'd either be good at it or bad at it. But you'll probably find nobody really cares...



Sorry guys, I'm going to disagree with this as well. There is no such thing as wrong technique - as long as it produces the result you want. There is your technique. There is somebody else's technique. There is good technique and there is bad technique, but not wrong technique.

After saying all that I just want to add a couple of points. If I want to learn a flourish or a move, I would go out and buy a book or DVD. Just because I disagree with a couple of the things said above, it doesn't mean that I "steal" people's ideas. I respect other people's ideas just as much as anyone. For example the cobra cut is an amazing piece of dexterity and performed by a master. (De'vo, I mean!). But just because you cut the cards in a certain way, you can't tell other people they can't try and do it as well - in my opinion.

Whenever someone comes up with an original idea (and there is very little that is truly original about) there is always, ALWAYS, going to be someone copying it. It's best just to accept it and take it as a form of flattery.

It is truly not my desire to upset anyone with the remarks I've made - and I hope I haven't

Mark

Just another quick point. I notice on another thread somebody has asked how to perform a card spin. On that thread people are falling over each other explaining what is the best way. Interesting...
Mark

The card spin is a common thing. That's why they are helping him out. Some things are more protected by others. Maybe in 10 or so years people will share the Flipback more openly, but for now it's one of those things that you are going to get **** for asking about.

lol

Everyone has good points here. I think the biggest problem is that the moves we are mostly talking about these days are De'vo's "pet" moves, not common known moves. De'vo had only released performance rights to those that bought the video CDs. Those who got them know their value, and now all these copycats are performing them incorrectly because they didn't get the CDs and took them from his videos and it is upsetting to watch. Also, he was SELLING the techniques! So those that take them without paying seem to be stealing in the eyes of those that paid to learn them and received the performing rights by purchasing them.

Props to keeblem. Thank you so much for being reasonable. I am going to buy this, but right now I don't have the money. I was not asking on tips, because I already can do it both ways. I was asking if anyone else uses this other way, because I have not seen it before. I also want to say that if people had not been building off of other people's ideas. We never would have come to where we are now, nor would we have the kind of diversity in tricks that we have now. (How many different brands of cards are there out there? Are the Egyptians cursing Talley Ho and Bicycle?) What about pen thru everything, just passing thru, or all the variations of one trick that are basically the same illusion? It's not like I'm giving the secrets about IT or anything. Who here can throw cards? Who here figured it out on their own? Flourishes are not secrets, and they should be performed by anyone who can pull them off, as long as credit goes where credit is deserved. I'm not going around claiming that the flipback is mine, because that would be just downright rude and terrible.

Well, before anyone thinks they invented a flipback variation, De'vo published it in the 80s as jinx mentioned, and I read his dreams and nightmare books had over 100 variations and flipback moves in it. He has flipback shuffles, arm spreads, and even flipback type of sybils. So go ahead and re-invent the wheel. It's bound to happen again and again with so called "variations, or your own moves". De'vo is light-years ahead of us with this realm of moves. I can almost guarantee anything we come up with - with the flipback is already his! But what the heck, try away and call it what-ever you want! lol. He has over 30 books in Germany, I would love to see just ONE if anyone has a bead on an extra somewhere!

I'm not claiming I have my own variation. I'm... argh. Never mind!! Yes De'vo IS the master and yes I respect him with ever increasing greatness. I was just wondering where rodney got his version from. This argument is going to kill me... there goes my heart... yup, it stopped.

He got it from watching De'vo's videos like everyone else. But at least he knew better than to try to teach it, besides, his flipback technique was horrible! See his hand all bent? LOL

Cardjinx

You hit the nail on the head Phantom.

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Lonnie wrote this:
There is nothing wrong with figuring out moves on your own. I applaud anyone who can do that. What I think is wrong is when you have to ask for tips on something when we all know that it can be learned in the Encyclopedia. If you can figure it out on your own then you don't need any clarification.

If you are not going to go out and buy the merchandise then don't ask about the stuff you are trying to copy. Figure out your own way and be happy with that. Maybe you are reinventing the wheel, but that's just part of the process. Maybe you are inventing a new way to do it.



Really good Lonnie

I wasn't asking for tips. I can do it fine and I don't need anyone's help. I just saw Rodney do it differently and I was wondering what the deal was with that.