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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Kennedy Center Deal (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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jackouille07
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Wow, beautiful Center Deal LoďcJ!
cartouche7
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I don't think it's LoďcJ who is performing the center deal in this video...
LoďcJ.
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Exactly, it's not mine. I just want to have your opinion about it. I have the feeling that this center deal will be possible at a card table ?!
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On 2012-02-25 09:27, cartouche7 wrote:
I don't think it's LoďcJ who is performing the center deal in this video...

Wasn't aware that it was not LoďcJ dealing when I posted my comments about the efficacy of the deal,but my thoughts still apply regardless. It simply is not a "solid" move like a second deal and just doesn't stand up under all the conditions that one encounters in various game settings.
cartouche7
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LoďcJ, this move can fly in a game, depending on the situation. I understand, this move in fascinating, but it's not a cheater's move. It's very good for demonstration, and you are magician so, you can certainly use the center deal in your demo (why don't use a pseudo center?), but if you want to know if it will fly in a game, the answer is, maybe, but it's useless. It's also depending on the game, for texas hold'em, 2 pocket cards, let's say 10 player, 3 burn card and 5 open card, for a total of 28 card dealt. If the cut was too deep, your middle slug is dead.

Cagliostro, as usually, I learn a lot of thing just by reading your post, and I second you, the video was great.
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Well. I understand. Thank you.
Quote:
On 2012-02-25 17:15, cartouche7 wrote:
why don't use a pseudo center?

Actually I use it ! It was just a little question about the video. The move is so good, I don't understand why it could be possible to use at a card table. Now I have an answer.
tommy
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Going back a while it was common to play draw poker with a strip deck and I am just wondering if that would make a middle deal more practical, as you would be handling a 32 card deck?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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I find it so-so.

The cut is completed in the hands, there is a very noticeable setup at the beginning and I'd like to see it from the front. Besides, each time he gets the deck back in the hands the setup takes ages. I'd like to see it with the cards sailed away too.

The take is nicely done though.
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Just thought I'd clarify a few things from this thread.

1. Forte showed the pseudo-center deal routine to the producer of Hidden Secrets (Gary Ouellet) a few days before the taping. Ouellet had his world rocked by the demo and loved the "magician-fooling" aspect of the method. He insisted Steve include it in the show - it wasn't Forte's idea to include it. As someone who has practiced false deals for 20 years, I think it's 10 times harder to do than a regular center deal would have been.

2. It was the 9's that the guy on tv named, but he wasn't a stooge. There are other ways to skin that cat.

3. Derek's Spanish tv spots are not recorded. It's a live TV show going out to 3,000,000 people. The host (Pablo) has no idea what's going on. You see exactly what you see on television. How do I know? I was there for the most recent one with the bills. Just got back from Madrid an hour ago. Paul Wilson and Christian Engblom were also in attendance as Derek and Luis's guests. It was great.

4. Cagliostro is spot on about the practicality of the center deal in a real game. I'm not saying it's never been done, but the conditions must be just right for it to be a reasonable option (think a "7 pluck 1" scenario with the sucker in just the right seat to see nothing). The problem with the center is that if the conditions are right for it, then the conditions are usually right for a dozen easier moves as well. The center loses out to economy of effort in most cases.

5. It's Allan (Bill) Kennedy, not Robert Kennedy. Bish - Robert Kennedy was uh, someone else.

6. Anyone saying Forte is in a league of his own is absolutely right. I've never seen his equal when it comes to gambling moves.

Jason
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Tony45
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Quote:
On 2012-02-27 01:28, JasonEngland wrote:
6. Anyone saying Forte is in a league of his own is absolutely right. I've never seen his equal when it comes to gambling moves.

Jason


Besides me you mean ! Smile
Bobbycash
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Jason,
Just wondering if you had any specific thoughts on the Kennedy center? I know you covered your thoughts and opinions of it in your 1 on 1, but was there anything you didn't put in that video that you wouldn't mind sharing?
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Quote:
On 2012-02-27 04:22, Tony45 wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-02-27 01:28, JasonEngland wrote:
Anyone saying Forte is in a league of his own is absolutely right. I've never seen his equal when it comes to gambling moves.

Jason


Besides me you mean ! Smile

You are too being much too modest, Tony. I think you mean you are in a “world” of your own, not a "league" of your own. Forte definitively comes in a distant “second” in this regard. Smile
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On 2012-02-27 01:28, JasonEngland wrote:
Just thought I'd clarify a few things from this thread.

2. It was the 9's that the guy on tv named, but he wasn't a stooge. There are other ways to skin that cat.

Jason

I sure you are right about that, Jason. I was writing from distant memory and you would have more direct knowledge of that magic performance than I. However, as I recall the four 9s were on the top of the deck and retained there during the shuffles and cuts, plus the camera cut away after the spectator called out the 9s. After the camera cuts away, and before the shuffling sequence starts, there are a number of ways of getting the 9s to the top.

As I also recall there was a magician (I think it was Bill Malone) who did something called the “Scarne Aces” after having one unopened deck selected from many. After the new deck was selected the camera cuts away before the magician goes into his Scarne Aces routine. The Aces at that point, from what I could see on the tape, were on top of the deck with some type of prepared card (crimped or otherwise) on the bottom. So the placing of the Aces on top had to be done during the time the camera was not recording the performance.

The point being it is hard to get an accurate viewing on a taped performance, especially when there are camera cuts in between and the angles of viewing are revised. But all of this is more in the province of magic trickery rather than practical gambling chicanery.

Quote:
6. Anyone saying Forte is in a league of his own is absolutely right. I've never seen his equal when it comes to gambling moves.

Forte certainly is a virtuoso when it come to manipulating the tickets, that is right after Tony45 of course. Got to give credit where credit is due. Smile

Your low profile just got blown, Tony. Next we will probably be seeing you on YouTube demonstrating your moves like all the other "real" hustlers do. LOL
Tony45
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On 2012-02-27 12:22, Cagliostro wrote:

Your low profile just got blown, Tony. Next we will probably be seeing you on YouTube demonstrating your moves like all the other "real" hustlers do. LOL


Im working on that project right now as we speak, right after I get through cleaning up the Middle East that is. Smile
bishthemagish
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On 2012-02-27 01:28, JasonEngland wrote:
5. It's Allan (Bill) Kennedy, not Robert Kennedy. Bish - Robert Kennedy was uh, someone else.


Your right - my mistake - thanks for the correction.

I think the book I was talking about was the magic and methods of Ross Bertram. This has the Kennedy center as I remember and some interesting copy written about Kennedy also.
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900nm
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf0F7f0c4N8 these centers are so great !
Vincero
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I watched the Greek Deal, but the video wouldn't load enough for me to see the others... The take looked good, but the thumb was dead!!!!!
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Still threat'ning to devour me opens wide, To which the Hell I suffer seems a Heav'n" -John Milton, (Paradise Lost)
jfquackenbush
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Just to note, it's ridiculously easy to get the aces on top of the deck from new deck order without doing anything at all odd looking to a brand new deck of cards. The move required is well within the ability of much lesser card magicians than Bill Malone.
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cartouche7
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I am far to be skilled at this and I don't like this move for the reason that we spoke, but here is a little video of center deal training. If you have some thought...
Here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tt413RQCzc&feature=youtu.be
Gulyás Imre Miklós
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Quote:
On 2012-03-05 05:57, jfquackenbush wrote:
Just to note, it's ridiculously easy to get the aces on top of the deck from new deck order without doing anything at all odd looking to a brand new deck of cards. The move required is well within the ability of much lesser card magicians than Bill Malone.


I guess so..
but in that particular performance one of spectators shuffled the deck thoroughly before it was handed to Mr. Malone.
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Cagliostro
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On 2012-03-14 17:39, Gulyás Imre Miklós wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-03-05 05:57, jfquackenbush wrote:
Just to note, it's ridiculously easy to get the aces on top of the deck from new deck order without doing anything at all odd looking to a brand new deck of cards. The move required is well within the ability of much lesser card magicians than Bill Malone.


I guess so..
but in that particular performance one of spectators shuffled the deck thoroughly before it was handed to Mr. Malone.

Check back. Didn't the camera break between the spectator shuffling the cards and Malone going into his routine? I would have to check but am almost positive it did. In any event, the Aces were on the top of the deck for the routine to work as presented.
Michael Landes
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On 2012-02-19 16:38, JordanB wrote:
"... However, I think (and I think Jared would agree) a legitimate center deal is what Charlie Miller would refer to as an "intrigue move", with very little practicability for both the magic and hustling worlds.


A small aside for a very interesting thread: Charlie did indeed state openly that he had no faith in the Kennedy Center Deal as a practical tool for the card thief.
However, he was to eventually change his mind about this TYPE of sleight. In the early 60's Charlie had been planning to write a book of the material of Artanis. These
plans were dashed when Artanis died. But sometime after, Charlie met a protege of Artanis' who demonstrated to Charlie a Center Deal that, for the first time, convinced
Charlie that he was looking at the real thing, a practical tool in the card thief arsenal. He described the method in print in 1965. Charlie warned that mastering it would take a good year, but this was the real thing.
By the way he also described what he considered THE approach to a card table shift. Again, the source was this protege of Artanis. It is neither the Erdnase nor the clever shift described under Charlie's name in Ultimate Card Secrets. but it's in print and the fact that Charlie wrote them up should make these things easy to findfor those interested.
Cagliostro
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On 2012-06-23 16:18, Michael Landes wrote:
Charlie met a protege of Artanis' who demonstrated to Charlie a Center Deal that, for the first time, convinced Charlie that he was looking at the real thing, a practical tool in the card thief arsenal. He described the method in print in 1965. Charlie warned that mastering it would take a good year, but this was the real thing.

Well I guess that is pretty definitive. If Charlie Miller (who was essentially a magician) was convinced this Center Deal was the real “thing” (i.e., the real “work”), Smile and that it was in fact a practical, workable and undetectable method to be used at the card table, presumably against tough and observant players, than who could doubt that assertion. Surprisingly though, Tony Giorgio, who was a confidant of Miller and probably the only “magician” at the Castle who actually worked under fire and knew more about the “practical” real work than perhaps all the magicians at the Castle put together, never changed his opinion about the Center Deal being a useless and impractical move. Perhaps Miller coveted this method so greatly he did not show it to Giorgio, even though he evidently wrote about it for everyone else to see.

On the other hand, it may very well have been a visually deceptive center deal. But that means very little since there are many methods of getting the money that don’t require a year of practice and are more deceptive, less likely to be detected and have more practical application. A Center Deal is impractical on more than just the visual level, but that is usually the only level that most enthusiasts rate a gaff by.

As an example, a case in point would be the Walter Scott punch deal. This came out in manuscript form in the 1930s or thereabouts and was subsequently published in booklet form by Gamblers' Book Club, entitled "The Phantom of the Card Table" by Eddie McQuire. This method excited many magicians because it was difficult to do, titillated the imagination and had to be the ultimate work because Scott was after all, “The Phantom...” Wow, you can’t beat that. However, in the real world of hustling, for the most part this is all largely BS.

About that time another manuscript (which was also later published by Gamblers’ Book Club), entitled "Poker to Win" by Al Smith, described a “practical” ploy to be used in Draw Poker which Smith called the Three Card Trick. This method was not difficult to master, was very powerful, could bust any draw poker game over time, and was virtually impossible to detect. Additionally, there was no proof of cheating as there would be with a punched deck. I would say this method described by Smith, although not exciting, titillating or glamorous, and the concept behind it, has made more money for more hustlers than all the Walter Scott would be hustlers (and make-believe hustlers) lined up backside to belly button from here to the moon.

No disrespect meant to anyone here, but it seems like magicians (because they are hobbyists and have no practical experience in hustling) gravitate to the exotic moves and concepts which are mostly impractical and unworkable, at least the way they do them, and the hustlers just keep chugging along with the practical and workable and keep getting the money and therein lies the huge difference between the two.

---As an aside, don't take my response the wrong way, Michael. It was a good post on your part. However, you might want to reference where some of the things you allude to can be found which would add more credibility to your post.---
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The student of Artanis's that Michael alludes to is Dom Paolino. Charlie wrote up some of Dom's stuff in Genii magazine in his Magicana column. I think Michael got the year wrong (it was 1966, not 1965 that the center deal appeared), but other than that minor mistake his post is a good one.

Incidentally, Charlie may have been 95% magician, but the other 5% was card hustler. He messed around here and there and only narrowly missed getting caught up in a huge jackpot in the 1960s.

Jason
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bishthemagish
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Apparently, Ross Bertram thought that Allen Kennedy and his center deal was the real deal. As he says something like this in his book, the magic and methods of Ross Bertram - Allen Kennedy did the center deal better than anyone else and he was successful, made a lot of money and he was successful in beating all the leading card hustlers. However he stops there and goes on with the written text of how to do it.

This book is where I learned the center deal, however I got some tips on how to perform it from another magician/card sharp!

I hope this helps.
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Cagliostro
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On 2012-06-23 22:31, JasonEngland wrote:
The student of Artanis's that Michael alludes to is Dom Paolino. Charlie wrote up some of Dom's stuff in Genii magazine in his Magicana column. I think Michael got the year wrong (it was 1966, not 1965 that the center deal appeared), but other than that minor mistake his post is a good one.

I agree Michael wrote a good post but simply needed further reference. Jason’s additional clarification really jogged my memory on some of this. I have acquired so much information and knowledge over the past 50 plus years, salted away in the dim recesses of my mind, that until someone writes or mentions something to bring it to the fore, it remains dormant.

As I recall from distant memory, Miller did write about a center deal in Magicana in the 60s and the name Dom Paolino vividly comes to mind. (It is not a name easily forgotten.) The center deal I remember went something like this: the bottom few cards were jogged to the right by the right little finger on the completion of the cut, they remained jogged to the right during the deal, the remainder of the deck was spread to the right to cover the jogged cards and the left forefinger was covering the front end of the deck to hide the jog or breaking from that angle giving the deck a somewhat “disheveled” appearance.

IF in fact that is the move in question, I did play with it for a while out of curiosity and decided, with respect to Charlie Miller, that it was a questionable move to employ in a worthwhile game. This is not to say it could not be employed in a game. Any move can be used depending on the game. In my opinion, Miller’s statement regarding the efficacy and implied practicality of this move is not definitive, except perhaps to other magicians, but certainly not to professional hustlers.

I recall it was a very difficult move and I had a hard time trying to control dealing the cards from the center one card at a time. That would take considerable practice and for me the end result was not worth the effort. There were so many better and more practical ways to get the money than using something like this in a game.

It seems like magicians in general seem to rate the efficacy of a move based upon how exotic or difficult it is to master. In my opinion, that concept is one thousand percent incorrect for practical gambling application. Although hustling a game can require some manipulative skill, in most cases it does not require extraordinary or great manipulative skill. Other, more important “skills” are required.

The jogging concept, in modified form, appears to have been subsequently written about by Marlo and others over the years.

@Jason:
Quote:
Incidentally, Charlie may have been 95% magician, but the other 5% was card hustler. He messed around here and there and only narrowly missed getting caught up in a huge jackpot in the 1960s.

Although I don’t know much about the “Castle” crowd and who if any tipped his proverbial toe into the gambling side on occasion (successfully or unsuccessfully), I recall that Giorgio wrote at one time that Miller could not get the money. He included in that category Vernon, Ose, Scarne, McDougall and others. He felt that the only magician that was capable, in his experience, was Francis Carlyle. Giorgio subsequently changed his opinion regarding Miller at a later date and as I recall said Miller did some hustling and was capable to some degree.

I also recall from Giorgio’s writings that he and Miller were going to write a book on gambling moves but Miller backed down. Evidently Miller was afraid of repercussions from some gamblers.

Additionally someone wrote (and I don’t remember where I got this from), that Miller worked in the “peek” for a while, upstairs at the Friars’ Club in Los Angeles with the guys that orchestrated and played the big Gin Rummy scam at that club and “took off” a number of Hollywood big names with that ploy. When the play was discovered it subsequently hit the national media. I personally don't know if this allegation is true or not, but if so it may have been Miller's biggest “hustling” money score.

Jason, thanks for jogging my memory on this.
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On 2012-06-24 12:45, bishthemagish wrote:
Apparently, Ross Bertram thought that Allen Kennedy and his center deal was the real deal. As he says something like this in his book, the magic and methods of Ross Bertram - Allen Kennedy did the center deal better than anyone else and he was successful, made a lot of money and he was successful in beating all the leading card hustlers.

No disrespect meant to anyone, but to me this is all will-o-the-wisp magician hyperbole and nonsense. Once again, and with no disrespect to anyone on this forum, very few magician who study this material have any idea as to what will get the money or not unless they have actual experience along these lines. The nonsense that has been foisted upon the magic community by Vernon and others is monumental in this regard. Not that I don’t respect these gents, I certainly do. But I respect them for their accomplishment in the magic community and their furtherance of the art of card table manipulation.

As far as their claims as to what does or does not get the money in a real game, that is all part of the “story” that “enhances” the moves. To put it bluntly, IMHO it is magician BS to “sell” the move or moves in question.

You can’t sell the moves being explained or the ability of the person being exalted if you say that he (Kennedy and also Walter Scott), were really small time neighborhood gamblers and could not get the money if they went up against the leading hustlers of their era. It has to be embellished to give it believability, glamor and pizazz. Who want to learn a move where the guy who invented it got his head broken five or six times using it. Smile

Guys, learn the moves because they are fun to play with and perform. But you might to take many of these stories and statements with a grain of salt, or maybe even with the whole salt shaker.
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Quote:
On 2012-06-24 14:31, Cagliostro wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-24 12:45, bishthemagish wrote:
Apparently, Ross Bertram thought that Allen Kennedy and his center deal was the real deal. As he says something like this in his book, the magic and methods of Ross Bertram - Allen Kennedy did the center deal better than anyone else and he was successful, made a lot of money and he was successful in beating all the leading card hustlers.

No disrespect meant to anyone, but to me this is all will-o-the-wisp magician hyperbole and nonsense. Once again, and with no disrespect to anyone on this forum, very few magician who study this material have any idea as to what will get the money or not unless they have actual experience along these lines. The nonsense that has been foisted upon the magic community by Vernon and others is monumental in this regard. Not that I don’t respect these gents, I certainly do. But I respect them for their accomplishment in the magic community and their furtherance of the art of card table manipulation.

As far as their claims as to what does or does not get the money in a real game, that is all part of the “story” that “enhances” the moves. To put it bluntly, IMHO it is magician BS to “sell” the move or moves in question.

You can’t sell the moves being explained or the ability of the person being exalted if you say that he (Kennedy and also Walter Scott), were really small time neighborhood gamblers and could not get the money if they went up against the leading hustlers of their era. It has to be embellished to give it believability, glamor and pizazz. Who want to learn a move where the guy who invented it got his head broken five or six times using it. Smile

Guys, learn the moves because they are fun to play with and perform. But you might to take many of these stories and statements with a grain of salt, or maybe even with the whole salt shaker.


Great post.
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Quote:
On 2012-06-24 12:45, bishthemagish wrote:
Apparently, Ross Bertram thought that Allen Kennedy and his center deal was the real deal. As he says something like this in his book, the magic and methods of Ross Bertram - Allen Kennedy did the center deal better than anyone else and he was successful, made a lot of money and he was successful in beating all the leading card hustlers.

Quote:
On 2012-06-24 14:31, Cagliostro wrote:
No disrespect meant to anyone, but to me this is all will-o-the-wisp magician hyperbole and nonsense. Once again, and with no disrespect to anyone on this forum, very few magician who study this material have any idea as to what will get the money or not unless they have actual experience along these lines.


Thank you for "your" opinion. Now I am going to give you "my" opinion of what Ross Bertram wrote in his book. It is a discription of how to do a center deal. Possibly the Kennedy center deal as worked out by Dai Vernon as Bertram says that Vernon's hands were used in the photographs.

Quote:
On 2012-06-24 14:31, Cagliostro wrote:
The nonsense that has been foisted upon the magic community by Vernon and others is monumental in this regard. Not that I don’t respect these gents, I certainly do. But I respect them for their accomplishment in the magic community and their furtherance of the art of card table manipulation.

As far as their claims as to what does or does not get the money in a real game, that is all part of the “story” that “enhances” the moves. To put it bluntly, IMHO it is magician BS to “sell” the move or moves in question.


Speaking as a magician in my opinion the center deal "does get the money" when used in a demonstration. Not only can it be entertaining it is also part of magic history and legend if presented right.

However in my opinion to be used in a game "today"? One also has to consider that the rules, games people play and protocols have "changed" since those days when Walter Scott and Allen Kennedy were playing cards. However I would say Walter Scott who was a vaudeville performer - I don't think he would have had a hard time finding a game just because people in vaudeville and show business in those days played cards - often between shows.

I know this to be true because my Dad was a vaudevillian and he played cards.

Quote:
On 2012-06-24 14:31, Cagliostro wrote:
Guys, learn the moves because they are fun to play with and perform. But you might to take many of these stories and statements with a grain of salt, or maybe even with the whole salt shaker.

I learned the move to use in a performance (not to cheat people at the card table). And it does still get the money in the way I use it. However I do not find what Ross Bertram or Dai Vernon or any magician that learned and used the center deal and published interesting story around it to be false.

As I said the rules, games and protocol have changed quite a bit since Walter Scotts and Allen Kennedy's day. I think one should take the time difference and what games were popular then and now and how they played them into the consideration when talking about things like the center deal.
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@bishthemagish above, June 24th 2012, 5:57pm:

Sorry if I offended you. My comments were not directed to you personally, but to Vernon’s (and other magicians’) hyperbole that surrounds these somewhat legendary "greats." I remain firm in my statements and that conclusion and would write the post exactly the same way again. If your opinion is otherwise, that’s fine with me.

Did Scott and Kennedy play cards? I’m sure they did. Did they employ chicanery when they played cards to get the money? I’m fairly certain they did.

Did they both “take-off” all the top card hustlers that they encountered with their moves? I find that very doubtful in the extreme. In fact, I find it absurd. However, if you believe otherwise, that’s okay with me also.

Just to clarify. The slang expression “Getting the Money,” in the gambling context refers only to cheating to obtain money, not to “earning” money working at a job or doing demonstrations for pay. If you want to use it in a different context, that's okay with me also.

As you can see, I'm a very agreeable guy.

Cheers. It is time for a Martini. You might want to loosen up and have one too. Smile
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