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cartouche7 New user 70 Posts 
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Have you heard about a scam called "red black pencil"?
A red and black pencil (like this one: http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/robynm......hamp.jpg ) is thrown and you bet what is the color that will be at the top of the pen when it stops rolling. Of course the pencil is crooked, it depend of the way of rotation. Do you know about the history of this scam? I have seen a video of steve forte using one of those crooked pencil and I was very curious about that. (I have one of those pencil) |
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts
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Wow, this really takes me back to my teen-age years. I bought one of these from the KC Card Company back at the dawn of history, mostly as a curiosity as I wanted to learn everything I could at that time. Very easy to work and use.
I don't know the history but it is a short hustle and I would guess it has been around for at least 100 years or more. The "game" can be started anywhere at anytime. |
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Marlin1894 Special user 559 Posts
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It's been a around for a long, long time.
It was in the KC Card Company Blue Book for years. Page 38 of the 1948 book, Page 53 of the 1960 book. |
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Marlin1894 Special user 559 Posts
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I think an even better scam using the red black pencil would be to make some and sell them with a scan of the page from the Blue Book. At that auction in Chicago last year one set sold for $150.00 and one sold for $275.00.
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-03-16 14:35, Marlin1894 wrote: That is incredible to me. I am seeing so many items that I bought for negligible money when I was a kid, selling now for, comparatively speaking, extraordinary sums of money. Moreover, items that were easily available are becoming more and more difficult to acquire. I bought a myriad of items from the KC Card Company catalog (to see, learn about and experiment with) for what would be considered chump change today. Seems like we pay a price for “progress.” |
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Marlin1894 Special user 559 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-03-16 15:31, Cagliostro wrote: I know it. All sorts of things I wish I still had. Thing about the pencils is I don't even know how you could verify that they were vintage unless they had the original package or an old invoice. And I'm not even sure they came in packages that identified the item. They might have just thrown them in an envelope. In 1960 they sold for 3 bucks. |
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cartouche7 New user 70 Posts
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Do you know about the modus operandi for the pencil scam? It was just a little prop bet between two people? Or the game was played with a fair pencil and the crooked pencil was switch into play later?
Your post are very interesting to me, thanks. The counterfeiter have a very good market to exploit lol. |
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Marlin1894 Special user 559 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-03-16 15:57, cartouche7 wrote: Probably. I suppose you could do a number of things. I believe (although I don't know for sure, and the book doesn't really say) that it came as a set with one pencil that favored black, one that favored red, and a ungaffed pencil. With those I suppose you could do a few varations of the basic bet. Cagliostro probably knows better. I don't think the book says how many come in the set. Honestly, I have a feeling it was one of those things in the book that was never really used much by anyone to hustle people. They probably sold more to kids, like Cagliostro was when he bought them, than anyone actually looking to hustle anyone. |
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cartouche7 New user 70 Posts
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I don't think there is two crooked pencil, one is enough. Here is a little video of mine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j7itw7d7tU&feature=youtu.be
As you can see, it's the way of rotation who influence the result. The mechanism is quite simple. |
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Marlin1894 Special user 559 Posts
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Neat. One of the sets that sold in 2011 had three pencils, the other had two. I believe that principle has been used on other gaffed gambling equipment. Things that are more conducive to actual gambling.
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cartouche7 New user 70 Posts
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I have find this: http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/2518/image10ut.png
As you said, a set of three pencils and one of two. Do you know how the gaffed pencil who favored one color works? The surface of one color are more important? |
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Marlin1894 Special user 559 Posts
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That's the exact auction I was talking about. I have that book and I also previewed most of the items in person and bought a few things. Good find.
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Marlin1894 Special user 559 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-03-16 17:55, cartouche7 wrote: I really don't. It seems that, like you said, if you can go black or red with one pencil you wouldn't need two different ones. But I don't know very much about them. Maybe it's a different gaff, doesn't seem likely though. I really don't know. Like I said, I have no idea if those were even genuine. I wouldn't have paid what they sold for without the original instructions that came with it. |
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts
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As I recall, there may have been two pencils, one was legit, the other could roll red or black depending on how it was rolled. It was sort of gimmicked like the put and take top as far as the cuts on the pencil were made.
If two partners were playing each other at a bar and making small wagers on guessing red or balck while having a drink or two, patrons at the bar or passing by could become interested. Then three or four people could start to wager for small amounts, or perhaps they trap just one person. Later the bets could increase. With the gaff pencil the partners could control the color that was rolled on their rolls. Also, they would know what color the mark would roll depending if he rolled left handed, right handed, eraser end one way or the other, palm out or palm in on the roll, etc. I am just guesting on this but that is the most logical way to play this. As I said, it is like the put and take top, although maybe a poor man’s version of same. It is a small time hustle and in some respects more of an oddity. I think for something like this, the “TAT” hustle with one die makes a lot more sense or even the put and take top. The game could start with the square pencil or it couls be switched in later in case a big loser wante to examine it more closely. Or just leave it around on the bar. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
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If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Marlin1894 Special user 559 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-03-16 19:33, Cagliostro wrote: I was going to say the rolling logs are more logical for bars, but now that I think about it the pencils may seem more innocent. But then again, who carries pencils around these days? Either way it's small potatos like you said. I have used P&T tops in bars and at parties and taken a few respectable pots because they can build quickly with the tops. That's an old school item that some people take to. They are a lot of fun actually, and most people haven't seen one. |
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Marlin1894 Special user 559 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-03-16 19:41, tommy wrote: lol! I have that book. I don't think I've ever even looked at the pencil section. |
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yellowkid New user 15 Posts
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Logs, tops, and pencils are all gaffed the same way. by the time the top is slowed right down, it's on it's side just like the log and pencil.
you could always get away with stronger work on the pencil than you could the log and the top, because pencils still look normal even with strong work in them. all three play as strong today as ever in bar bets. carpenters still carry pencils, and logs and tops never did look like anything normal anyway, lol. |
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Marlin1894 Special user 559 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-03-16 20:16, yellowkid wrote: That seems logical. A good log or top is not a sure thing by any means. Maybe 70%, 80% at best on anything I have seen (often less). Which is obviously still huge, but I wouldn't bet my life on one roll. Most carpenters use flat pencils. The kind that don't roll around and fall on the floor when you set them down. (if I used smilies I'd include the winky one here. lol) |
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts
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I have never seen a normal everyday pencil with alternating red and black colors. I would think someone would have to have a "story" as the why a red/black pencil even exists, like he got it at the carnival or circus or it was a promtional item at the toy store he took his kid to. However, I'm sure there are better ways to hustle and win money in a bar that looks a lot more natural with more natural props than a red/black pencil.
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Posted: Mar 16, 2012 05:58 pm 
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