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hypnokid
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Quote:
On 2012-04-05 11:20, bobser wrote:
I do believe they are totally incapable of understanding 'constructed' argument.


If you think we have not understood what you've written - apart from that you have witnessed abreactions and believe them to always be possible in hypnosis because of that - then please write it more clearly.

If you think abreactions are such a big deal in performance then I can't understand why you wouldn't be more interested in the thoughts of those that don't ever see them. They must be doing something different otherwise they would see them, wouldn't they? Why doesn't that interest you? Do you think that they're lying?

HK
Too much style to be a stage hypnotist.
Anthony Jacquin
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If you look at the origin of the word you will see it only makes sense if you also give credit to the idea of repression. I am guessing catharsis is familiar and welcome terrain for you Bob? Maybe it is not repression, perhaps some hypnotists just upset their clients.

Anthony
Anthony Jacquin
Hypnotism for Magicians
October 2013, London.
http://www.headhacking.com/training
Dannydoyle
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I am not saying the term is wrong, I am saying the science it is based upon is discredited and hundreds of years old.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TonyB2009
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In fairness Bob said abreactions were a feature of therapy. He said that they were a rarity on stage. We might not be that far apart.

Twice I have got bad reactions on the stage. The first time the guy was on drugs. The second guy was epileptic, and the drink he had before coming up reacted badly with his medication. But it would have been easy to misinterpret these as psychological reactions to the hypnosis.

I still stand by what I said: a skilled stage hypnotist does not have to worry about abreactions, because they will not occur on stage. In therapy you will get them if they are part of the therapeutic arsenal you draw upon. I do not have the background to handle them, or the interest to learn, so I do not do therapy.
Check out Tony's new thriller The Gilli Gilli Man at Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/Gilli-Tony-Black-M......illi+Man
mindpunisher
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There are not many skilled hypnotists on here especially the ones that have bought products from here. Sometimes a person can have a bad reaction and the hypnotist doesn't even know. The reason why suggesting that someone has lost a body part like breasts, belly button or "willie" has been banned in the UK is because there was a case where someone had previously recovered from cancer where they had the cancer removed was traumatized by the experience. The hypnotist or the audience had no idea. yet for months after wards she was suffering from anxiety and depression.
hypnokid
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On 2012-04-07 17:06, bobser wrote:

HK please tell me when I said 'abreactions are such a big deal in performance'. I didn't it's not. Indeed should NEVER happen in performance. Sometime in talking to you I feel not so much like an educater but more of an effing missionary, which is yet another huge word you won't understand.


The original post that started the thread was about performance hypnosis and discussions of hypnotherapy are specifically banned from this forum. I assumed that your emotional outpourings were about the topic (performance) rather than specifically therapy. My bad I guess.

Starting afresh, why do you think abreactions should NEVER happen in performance? I don't mean why are they a bad idea, I mean what do you think performance hypnotists should be or are doing in order to NEVER see one in performance?

HK
Too much style to be a stage hypnotist.
bobser
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On 2012-04-08 08:55, hypnokid wrote:

Quote:
Starting afresh, why do you think abreactions should NEVER happen in performance? I don't mean why are they a bad idea, I mean what do you think performance hypnotists should be or are doing in order to NEVER see one in performance?
HK


Fair enough HK.
They should never happen in performance because the skilled performer will steer away from areas of where they might happen. ie: taking someone to a younger age (say 4) and telling them: "Here comes daddy, climbing up the stairs with your favourite Teddy Bear to tuck you in."
That could very easily 'pop' a suppression (assuming they exist and I run with the belief that they do) which is then remembered and the subject reacts in an abnormal fashion (abreaction).
You now have a 40 year old woman on stage, screaming like a four year old child in the knowledge that the one person in the world who 'touches her in a bad way' is coming up the stairs.
Remember: 'this is the reality she is living in at the present moment'.

Now THIS is important... 'I'm' not saying or claiming this. Rather these persons REPORT this. THEY say it. Hence I quoted 'Occam's Razor' meaning it's most likely to be true.
Why anyone would argue or even WANT to argue with this amazes me. But I can only assume that it's because the 'arguer' has no experience of the phenomena. Which is almost fair enough except that it's not! At best I feel it's bad manners.

Now the doctor Danny quoted was/is absolutely totally and completely wrong. That's not a guess on my part but a fact. But if a person want to fight for an untruth they always get to win theirt argument!
I could 'easily' bring personal friends who are doctors/psychologists into this argument who KNOW all about abreactions but I simply refuse to use a heavy hammer to crack a peanut shell.

Even in CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy) which is 'outside' hypnosis and done totally in the conscious wakened state they experioence many abreactions. The only difference between THAT and HYPNO-ANALYSES is that in the latter the subject/patient gets to understand WHY they've abreacted. In CBT they abreact but will often smile immediately and say: "Oh my, I simply have no idea where that came from".

Right then HK. That's all good stuff I've given you. Feel free to use it freely in the knowledge you will NOT be talking garbage. OR... carry on. But remember, if you always believe what you've always believed, then unfortunately you'll always believe what you've always believed.

DO remember... I'm merely reporting that I've seen many abreactions in a clinical setting, however; I do NOT claim that I have EVER seen an abreaction on a hypnosis stage. BUT; I have been told by other 'stage' hypnotists that they have had them. I believe them. Why would I not? I listen to them all and make a judgement. My judgement is that these experts in their chosen profession are a) correct and b) telling the truth. And of course that the doctor is a cock. There y'go, saves time.

My next course is in July. Come along as my paying guest. SEE abreactions. Be trained in the skills of 'The Ballach' (that's me by the way).

MP, I'm not very happy with you!
I decide to become the bad boy of 'SLEEPY', doing very well thankyou very much. And then you come along and make me look like the good fairy from the toilet in the park. I thought you'd changed.
I thought you'd let go of all that stuff. Yet you seem angrier than ever. Have to hand it to you... well done.
You're back!!!!!!!!!
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
TonyB2009
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On 2012-04-08 07:03, mindpunisher wrote:
Tony why on earth are epileptics getting on stage? Don't you mention the epilepsy is one of THE main things you don't want up on stage?

I have no idea why he came up - the warning was given very strongly. It is one of the few parts of the pre-induction I never skip. Yet I have seen pregnant women coming on stage (sometimes in stilettos!) right after the warning. No accounting for people.
Even more alarming was why he was drinking when his doctor clearly told him alcohol would react with his medication and trigger a grand mal seizure. It did. He ended up in hospital.
Interestingly on the same night a member of the band Westlife was on stage, and stripped bollock naked at the end of the evening. It was a wild night.
Good to see you back here, MP. The place is getting dull.
Check out Tony's new thriller The Gilli Gilli Man at Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/Gilli-Tony-Black-M......illi+Man
mindpunisher
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Stage hypnosis would be a great job if it weren't for the public. I did a show and stated clearly I didn't want anyone with any physical injury up. And this girl gets up with a rubber arm saying she can't clasp her hands but would I still hypnotise her. Then another faked a heart attack on stage and it took three security guys to carry him off stage.
hypnokid
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On 2012-04-08 10:22, bobser wrote:
They should never happen in performance because the skilled performer will steer away from areas of where they might happen. ie: taking someone to a younger age (say 4)


Hi Bobser. I did read your whole post but I've got a question about this bit. Do you think that abreactions are caused by the specific types of suggestions and not randomly simply by being hypnotised?

HK
Too much style to be a stage hypnotist.
bobser
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HK, my opinion is: 'Absolutely' (almost).

I say 'almost' because even if the suggestion is made the subconscious (for a myriad of reasons) might still not 'go there'. So.... if the suggestion is made, and they go there, and they find something which was repressed at an earlier time which they are THEN reminded of... they can abreact with the horror of the memory of the 'feelings' attached to the event. That's the 'feelings', never the event in itself. That's because it's the feelings that were repressed and NOT the event.

However... they can still 'bump into' that memory (forcing an abreaction) while in a state of free-association, WITHOUT the suggestion to 'go there' ever having been made by the therapist/hypnotist.

All of the above is WHY I suggested it's a small chance that it could happen in a stage setting.... BUT, it CAN happen ina regressive state to very young childhood.
The danger is where the stage hypnotist, who does regression and has NEVER had an abreaction, constructs a solid belief that, therefore, there can be no such thing.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
Dannydoyle
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I will say it again for the extremely thick.

IF YOU HYPNOTISE SOMEONE TO UNCOVER A PAST MEMORY, YOU ARE PLANTING THE SUGGESTION THAT A PAST MEMORY EXISTS.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
bobser
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Yes Danny is correct in that if you suggest a false memory then the memory 'may' be real to the reciprient.
But I think we all already knew that Danny. And listen up... if you did then you could very well: BE THE CAUSE OF AN ABREACTION (real or imagined).
But we're talking of something else hear, who only the extremely thick wouldn't understand?
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
mindpunisher
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Danny are you saying past memories don't exist? We are our memories or WE wouldn't exist. You wouoldn't be able to post here if it were not for your past memories its called LEARNING and as humans we are LEARNING MACHINES. Sometimes what we learn may not be beneficial for us but either way this is FACT.

this is the problem with the word hypnotist the public believe we are all the same butu reality is we aren't some really don't know much about the subject at all. Sticking a hand to a table or having the ability to entertain with a show doesn't make you a hypnotist. It makes you someone who knows little about a vast subject.
hypnokid
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How does human memory work, Mindpunisher?

HK
Too much style to be a stage hypnotist.
mindpunisher
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I can't remember......But one theory or way of looking at it is that we record memories like a hard drive. Through our senses.We also file them in a chronological way in order to know how far something is in the past. We also have future memories and plans. Again we store them in such a way that allows to know that we have or haven't done certain things. For example you will have an idea what you are going to do tomorrow next week and next month. Likewise you know what you did an hour ago a day ago a week ago a year ago. You woke up this morning you didn't need to look up a diary you just knew it was Saturday and you had certain things to do.

Memories are structured linear. Also memories have emotional components. Emotions especially negative ones are filed together with the purpose of being "processed" at a later date. For example a toddler touches something hot gets burned he/she experiences fear around anything that's hot until he emotion is processed and they "learn" or "relearn" that so long as you respect hot objects its ok to be around them. The emotion is released the memory is flat it no longer stores the fear and their is no emotional reaction around hot objects. However quite often the unconscious doesn't get round to processing that emotion. And the next time the toddler experiences a similar emotion say the parent puts the light out and it is still awake and experiences fear ---it files the emotions together in order to go back and process them at a later date.

However often the unconscious just goes on and on adding layers to whats known as the Gestalt. People that over react or burst into tears or display bouts of anger for no reason are accessing whole gestalts of emotion. In other words emotional baggage.

Reliving an emotion doesn't release it - it just adds another layer. Taking someone back accidentally or whatever to a traumatic event in the past and associating them back into it activates the whole of the emotional baggage which can be a distressing experience. Mainstream counseling does this and is the main reason that clients are in therapy for years at a time never get over the problem but get worse.

I also suspect that the main reason this kind of therapy is mainstream and often referred by medical people is it doesn't interfere with their business model. IE get patients into a system and prescribe medication for years which is how they make their money.

Thhere so many better ways to sort this kind of thing painlessly and fast they must know about it but they choose to ignore them.
mindpunisher
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I "believe" also memories change as we get older and more experienced. As our perspective changes we look back differently.
Dannydoyle
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Whem did I say memories don't exist?

Again let me ask you what your doctorate is in?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mindpunisher
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What does a doctorate do with it? Most medical people don't have a clue about hypnosis and aren't qualified to comment about it. I have TWO university degrees one in computing one in Graphic design they are both worthless.

You seemed to suggest that the only way someone associates or regresses into a past memory traumatic or not is because it is suggested and that bad reactions don't occur and are just suggestions. That's not true. While it is true what you say can happen by and large that's not what happens.Its more than likely when someone stage is regressed they associate into a highly charged memroy and experience the raw emotions.


and by the way Danny both psychiatry and psychology even with a doctorate aren't legitimate science.

That is simply fact just get anybody off the street ill show you it happening. I will also show you how to get rid of the baggage in about 10 mins.
hypnokid
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This podcast suggests that isn't how memory works.
http://www.radiolab.org/2007/jun/07

HK
Too much style to be a stage hypnotist.
mindpunisher
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Well that's brilliant hypnoskid your learning to do your own research well done... now isn't that great you have two points of view now you can make up your own mind...
Dannydoyle
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Simply attacking the other side for your own lack of education does not cut it. This is how the pro UFO crowd works.

Sorry but show me the science of how "repressed memory" works. It has been thouroughly thrashed and holds no water any more. Abreactions are an extension of this.

I think I know what bobser is getting at. I mean beyond his arrogance and condesention. I do understand the point he is making, but again show me the education or science to back it up is all I ask. I don't mean attack those who do hold these degrees, or attack those with a different opinion. I mean support YOUR opinion with something other than "I have seen this or that".

See this is all I am asking. Support your side, don't lash out at the other. bobser is famous for this tactic as is mindpunisher. Ok cool if that is all you have I have no need to educate you. I suspect this comes from a lack of formal education. If you can support what you say with studies and with books and such that are not written by people without education then we have something to talk about.

I have no need to get into a quip contest with anyone. It is pointless and it is what has degraded this froum to a sad state of affairs. It is sad when all you can do to support your position is to attack anothers. Grow up.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mindpunisher
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Danny I haven't mentioned repressed memory. I am talking about unresolved emotional issues they are simply a fact. If there is any lack of education in this area its coming from you

Whos attacking who? I haven't attacked you Ive just pointed out that we do have real memories with unresolved emotions attached. Any memory you have when you think back to it that still has any kind of negative feeling is an unresolved emotion period. Just about all models of therapy are based upon neutralizing these emotions ALL of them.

And are you telling me that you can remember every event that ever happened in your life? I know I can't and there will be memory's with unresolved emotional components.

Again this is simply fact. To ask for my doctorate is just really weak.

so as far as bad science goes BOTH DOCTORATES OF PSYCHOLOGY AND PSYCHIATRY are based upon pseudo science. They are not complete scientific disciplines. Is that attacking you or educating you?

Based upon training I have had and many years of experience I am sharing with you. Its you that's attacking and being silly by asking for doctorates etc.

And remember ALL models of psychotherapy are based upon the above.
mindpunisher
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hy79C0v8elE

These PHDs are talking about the mainstream PHDs

They are just drug peddlars.
Dannydoyle
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I have posted peer reviewed work. You have posted opinions about your experience. Show me peer review of your opinions and where a court of law backs it up. Till then it is anecdotal evidence at best.

Go ahead now you guys can talk amongst yourselves.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mindpunisher
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No I have posted a link to a video where esteemed doctorate's tell you what they think about their doctorate and profession. I have also real world experience many years in fact working with clients and helping them resolve issues usually in one session where thay had been I'm counseling or some form of drug therapy for a couple of years with no improvement.

I KNOW what I am talking about Danny you just find pieces of data and post links. But in reality you really don't have experience in the area you are talking about.

Doctorate means nothing watch the video they are all doctorates but spill the beans on psychiatry. I don't need to watch it because I know from first hand experience and working in the real world with clients. Most of which can be helped in a single session.

I find it difficult to believe that they don't know about some of the techniques I use and it is most likely that money will never be spent in clinical research to "prove" it because of the commercial interest involved in drugs.
Pakar Ilusi
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Smile

Oh my goodness gracious... This has taken a life all its own, this thread has...

Well, at least I have one of the longest threads here now...

Smile Smile
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
mindpunisher
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You started this Pakar you're a trouble maker...
Dannydoyle
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What exactly IS my experience? I doubt you know.

Yes you have some guys who say the field is whatever. I am asking for peer reviewed studies to back up your experience. Just because you saw the UFO doesn't make it real. Just because you saw something you choose to try to name ESP does not in any way mean it happens..

I guess your experience does not include even a nodding acquaintance with the scientific method does it? Which in all candor makes me question your conclusions even more.

So peer reviewed study? A doctor whose word is taken as law? Anything close to that to offer? Of course not just childish attacks from bobser and you stamping your feet screaming how you have indeed seen Bigfoot and the rest of science is nuts even though they can back up their conclusions with more than just words.

Now go ahead and attack me to somehow prove you are right.

I know it is frustrating because you have seen Bigfoot so he must be real.

Here is where your argument loses credibility quickly. The idea of helping someone through such a traumatic event in ONE session. First you plant the idea of a repressed memory by agreeing to find one and then tell me it is fixed in one session. Not shocking nobody will fund legitimate research. Just keep talking because the more you do the more my point is made.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mindpunisher
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Danny you look more stupid as time goes by. I don't plant anything they come to me with a SPECIFIC PROBLEM. They know what their problem is. The experience the depression anxiety or whatever on a daily basis. When they leave its gone.

I don't plant the idea of a repressed memory. You don't know your backside from your elbow. Its pretty clear what experience you do have. And this area its zilch.

And its a fact the pharmaceutical industry fund clinical trials and research. Its also a fact that doctors and quaks get paid to prescribe drugs. Its also a fact in a high number of these cases no drugs are needed and a few simple sessions often as little as one hypnotherapy session Sorts out the problem. THESE ARE FACTS KNOWN BY THOUSANDS OF HYPNOTHERAPISTS. Because they EXPERIENCE it on a daily basis.

You have absolutely no clue.

Peer reviewed study? Its ******** both psychology and psychiatry are not legitimate science. That is also a fact if you care to do some research you will discover that for yourself.

You are one of those poor unfortunates that eat anything that comes from the medical profession. They are not always right especially with emotional or psychological problems.

You have got this hallucination that every therapist is planting false memories. That's simply not true. You know nothing about therapy or the various techniques. Good or bad.

Your peer review request is just stupid. But then again what do you expect all your "experience" in these matters comes from browsing the internet.

Your the one spouting about bad science on a previous post. Now do some research and you will find that mainstream psychology and psychiatry is built on foundations of pseudo science.

I doubt it though because this is an ego thing for you. You don't want to uncover the truth... so I am not going to waste anymore time....
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