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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Makes you want to go out and do a show, huh?
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catweazle Special user 924 Posts |
I tried not to read it, but the glaze over my eyes couldn't block it fully.
I was quite enjoying the thread up to that point too. |
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Pomdini New user Some magical day I'll have more than 64 Posts |
Cameronb. If you truly believe that, then there is no way you help anyone overcome depression, using hypnosis or any other approach. What a shame.
I applaud your lengthy post and agree with much of it, It is nice to read such things. I also love the way you use CAPITAL LETTERS. It is true what you say about SSRI's (or SNRIs SNaRIs etc.) They are only effective if you are producing positive neurotransmitters in the first place. THEY WILL NOT MAKE YOU FEEL CLOSER TO A TEN THAN A FIVE. THEY WILL ONLY MAKE YOU FEEL CLOSER TO A TEN THAN A FIVE FOR A LITTLE BIT LONGER. Which is of course UTTERLY FANTASTIC, because the chances are greatly increased that during that period you will do some small thing that can encourage more positive behavior and make you feel closer to a ten than a six!(complexity theory). This will, as you know, lead to a positive form of long term potentiation meaning that the chances of a person becoming depressed again are substantially reduced. If you don't know why hypnosis absolutely encourages this then perhaps more study is for the best. This will even change the size and shape of some brain regions. The brain is plastic. Just like reality! The brain will learn to be positive and balanced in just the same way it learnt to be negative and depressed. Physiological exceptions are rare. The current DSM is not altogether brilliant at telling the groups apart. Even when it can't, you should remember that hypnosis is only contra indicated when a person is experiencing a florid event and is evidently effective at reducing the frequency of such episodes. Thus hypnosis is almost never ineffective in the treatment of depression. or to avoid the negation ... hypnotherapy, when positively focused and expertly applied, is always effective in the treatment of depression. It saddens me to read your post and find that you are already limited by what what you have been told. It is exactly this kind of thinking that can cause negative belief and lead to depression. Saying that one-on-one therapy cannot solve a biological issue is utter and complete nonsense and proves that you are not up to date with modern neuroscience (look in the mirror neuron). As a hypnotherapist I look forward to clients presenting with depression because I know I can change their lives. I don't necessarily feel the same about smokers!
“If you don't go after what you want, you'll never have it. If you don't ask, the answer is always no. If you don't step forward, you're always in the same place.”-Milton Erickson
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Wow, this thread is still going strong...
Bittersweet really looking at what's been said here. Well, keep it goin' I guess...
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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cameronb New user 21 Posts |
Pomdini,
I should have been more clear in my post with reference to hypnotherapy as a solution to biological depression. I apologize if I came off as naiive. Of course, the ideal is that neural plasticity will allow for an eventual reduction of the dosage of an SSRI or other antidepressant. The key is that it is a matter of time. I read a post earlier in this thread in which someone mentioned curing a person's depression with a SINGLE hypnotherapy session. What I wrote in my post was in response to that concept. I don't mean to say that any amount of hypnotherapy cannot solve biological depression; simply that it is not a one-time, end-all matter. Naturally, I am still learning new things about psychology every day, and I don't mean to imply that my knowledge is law. I intended only to respond to a few specific matters presented earlier in the thread. I hope that this post avoids the TL;DR fate of my last one. |
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dmkraig Inner circle 1949 Posts |
Camronb, although you have dogmatically stated that chronic, physiologically caused depression "…cannot be solved through one-on-one therapy. It simply cannot..." you have not given any reason, other than your belief, that this is so.
As long as you believe it, it's certainly true for you. And if you get into hypnotherapy, it will also be true for your clients/patients. Meanwhile, people who are doing hypnotherapy are having wonderful results with clients of this type in one session. Why do you think that is? And why do you think your dogma will prevent it? |
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cameronb New user 21 Posts |
Dmkraig,
What I have said is that a single, one-on-one therapy session of any kind simply cannot biologically alter the efficacy of serotonin production in the human brain. This is an effect that has been studied rigorously in laboratories for many years, and it is also the reason that SSRI's are designed to inhibit re-uptake RATHER than cause the brain to manufacture more serotonin. Furthermore, my believing this statement wasn't my only reasoning. I described the biological processes of serotonin re-uptake and the scientific discoveries in the field of neuroscience that have led to the evidence that only slowing serotonin re-uptake can cause a biologically depressed individual to respond more strongly to serotonin. Though SSRI's aren't necessarily the only means by which to do this, there is hard evidence that they do work, while there have been no conclusive tests to measure the efficacy of one-on-one therapy on the biological processes of serotonin re-uptake. This is because there is almost no way to control for other potentially causal variables. What careful studies in cognitive neuroscience have shown is that the amount of neurotransmitter binding to receptors in a single person's body cannot be altered without changing chemical operations within the areas that interact with the neurotransmitter. Prescription drugs are produced because there isn't another way to alter chemical processes consistently. While I agree that a hypnotherapy session can leave a person feeling very much past depressive thoughts, there is no documented proof that hypnosis is causing neurons to develop the ability to slow down their re-uptake of serotonin. Without proper EEG or MRI scans with traceable injections, there is no way to show that any one thing is causing the result. So although hypnosis may be CORRELATED with decreases in depressive symptoms, we cannot say with confidence that hypnosis is the CAUSE of the decrease. Correlation ≠ causation. This is a sound principle of logic. For more information on the concept, read this Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation......ausation . For instance, let's say you notice that a person observes that people who come in for therapy generally leave less happy after their sessions in January 2012 than after their sessions in July 2012. One might be tempted to say that the therapist has gained more skill in his trade, and that is why there has been a rise in patients leaving satisfied. However, we could just as easily assume that the lack of sunlight during the winter month left more patients feeling down despite therapy, and that the summer weather had a positive effect on them (symptoms of Seasonal Affective Disorder). The truth is that while the therapist's amount of experience correlates positively with the patients' levels of satisfaction after sessions, and while the increase in daylight correlates positively with the patients' levels of satisfaction, one cannot prove that either one is the actual CAUSE of the patients' variability in happiness without doing repeated, controlled experiments in order to eliminate other affective variables. So it is definitely true that hypnotherapists can aid their patients extremely well within the time span of one session, but it doesn't necessarily mean that there has been any effect on the re-uptake of serotonin in the central or peripheral nervous system, and if there HAS been a change in neural re-uptake, it cannot necessarily be attributed to the experience of hypnotherapy, since there are so many other factors to be considered. For example, expectancy and placebo are well-studied phenomena that have skewed the results of many tests. I don't mean to offend anybody, nor do I mean to imply that hypnotherapy is a placebo. I am not saying that. I am simply saying that it is possible, and there isn't conclusive evidence on either side. And please don't take my words the wrong way. I am studying psychology in the hope of one day having a private therapy practice. In no way am I trying to speak ill of hypnotic technique or its efficacy. I just think that it is wise to be cautious of making causal conclusions based on correlative evidence. |
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TonyB2009 Inner circle 5006 Posts |
I am no expert, but I would be very surprised if one session of talk therapy could cure physiologically caused depression. Psychologically caused, perhaps.
Check out Tony's new thriller Dead or Alive http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alive-Varrick-Bo......n+carson
http://www.PartyMagic.ie |
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cameronb New user 21 Posts |
TonyB2009,
This is what I believe as well, and what I mean to explain. If one studies neuroscience, the reasoning becomes clear. This is the kind of science upon which we rely in order to even separate psychosomatic disorders from each other. So it makes little sense for a person to say, "I have experience treating depression, and I don't believe this neuro-jargon because I know what I have seen," while at the same time relying upon that very science to judge whether or not a person has depressive symptoms. Symptoms are understood through the physiological processes that lead to them, after all. One more note to Pomdini: I read your most recent post again. I forgot to commend you on your "look in the mirror neuron" comment. I think only a psych student would laugh at that, and I did. So thank you. And again, there is still a lot that I am learning, and I am open to that experience. Though I still do not think that effective, transformative LTP is possible after one hypnotherapy session in such a way as to completely relieve a person of his / her depression, and I would say that anybody who walks out of a single therapy session and is cured for life probably didn't need therapy in the first place. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Well certainly anyone who uses so many words must be right.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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cameronb New user 21 Posts |
Dannydoyle,
I apologize if I've offended you. I thought that it was respectable of you to ask people to back up their claims with scientific peer-reviewed articles, and I thought you might agree with my use of lengthy explanations because that is often what is required when one is speaking about scientific concepts that have been developed over the course of many decades of research. And again you illustrate a good point: people often accept things on authority because they see big words and long, drawn out sentences. Trusting things on someone else's authority is a logical fallacy, to be sure. Speaking with concision has always been a struggle for me. It makes script-writing an up-hill battle. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
The way I see it... A.) this has nothing to do with abreactions which is the topic of this thread, and B.) it has nothing to do with stage or performance hypnosis, which is the purpose of this forum.
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quicknotist Special user 888 Posts |
Thank you Mindpro.
It really needed to be said. Quote:
On 2013-01-22 23:37, Mindpro wrote: |
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hypnokid Regular user 172 Posts |
And on top of that, the hard evidence is actually against the use of antidepressants.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/irving-kir......205.html HK
Too much style to be a stage hypnotist.
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Pomdini New user Some magical day I'll have more than 64 Posts |
It would be a poor hypnotherapist that did not ferociously wield the magic wand of placebo and expectancy.
Does anybody know of a good hypnotherapy forum? I am sure it could not possibly be as entertaining as The Magic Café! Cameronb, I agree that one session is highly unlikely to generate lasting change, although I wouldn't discount the possibility. It is because of a good understanding of LTP that certain types of therapy can be so effective so very quickly (8 to 12 sessions is pretty quick I feel) It would be a shame to feel that if someone only attended one session that you had not helped them in any way. Again complexity theory would suggest that any small decision can create a butterfly effect leading to powerful and lasting change, even if the decision is "That therapist was rubbish I'll go and do X instead"! Thank you for the enjoyable posts. Here is one on correlation does not imply causation you might like. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spag......_warming
“If you don't go after what you want, you'll never have it. If you don't ask, the answer is always no. If you don't step forward, you're always in the same place.”-Milton Erickson
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cameronb New user 21 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-01-23 06:24, hypnokid wrote: You may want to consider that this article is not scientific in nature, lacks sources, and the author's interpretation of findings is skewed in the extreme. Take a look at the comments from patient and psychiatrist alike. They are informative as well. At the very least, there is debate. As I've said before, I agree that the first option should NOT be antidepressants. I've also not said that I believe antidepressants or therapy to be the better option. The purpose of my involvement was to bring some valuable information to those who made comments without understanding a shred of the subject matter (e.g. "psychiatry and psychology are pseudoscience" and "psychiatry is a scam"). Pomdini, I am a firm believer in the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It, and the Volumes of Wisdom from the Invisible Pink Unicorn, have been my guiding lights in times of darkness. The article was fantastic |
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dmkraig Inner circle 1949 Posts |
CameronB wrote: "What I have said is that a single, one-on-one therapy session of any kind simply cannot biologically alter the efficacy of serotonin production in the human brain."
And I have no doubt that for you that is true. Of course, you HAVE changed the focus from chronic, biologically-caused depression to serotonin production, but that's okay. You also dodged my question as to why you personally choose to believe it. Have you personally done any controlled testing that shows this is true (ignoring, for a moment, the influence of the observer as has been increasingly noticed in both psychological and non-psychological experimentation). Could it be that this is simply what your teachers are telling you so you must believe it? What would you believe if nobody had ever bothered to do any testing on this? Have you ever worked with, say, twenty professional hypnotherapists who specialize in dealing with chronic, physiologically-caused depression? What would you say if you saw results that the depression was significantly improved after one session? Would you tell them, "You can't be better because my teachers and books said so?" "And please don't take my words the wrong way. I am studying psychology in the hope of one day having a private therapy practice. In no way am I trying to speak ill of hypnotic technique or its efficacy." I don't think I'm taking it the wrong way. But respectfully, your denial is exactly speaking ill of hypnotic technique and its efficacy. But that's okay. Hypnotherapy is NOT psychotherapy, and as someone who is stating that he wants to go into private therapy practice, it's important that you defend your approach against the approaches of others. I see the same sort of thing among many psychologists, furious that they don't get as good results as quickly as hypnotists. I also see some hypnotherapists denouncing all of the good work that psychologists and psychiatrists do because they often don't deal with the types of cases that those in the psychology field do. So, let me repeat my question to you: how many professional hypnotherapists have you worked with in order to test your theory that they couldn't possibly "alter the efficacy of serotonin production in the human brain?" 20? 10? 1? Or are you just repeating the dogma that you learned in school? Years ago, it was believed that there were many autonomic nervous system responses that could not be conscious controlled. All of the scientists dogmatically said so. And then biofeedback was developed and all of that changed. It was said that doctors could not perform surgery on a living heart. Now it is done all the time. Many scientists said that rockets wouldn't work in space because there was nothing for the engine to push against. Other scientist said we couldn't communicate with other people if we went faster than the speed of sound. Science is never fact written in stone. It is always theory. In the scientific world that doesn't mean, as some wack-jobs say, a guess. Rather, it is the best explanation for all phenomena. When a better explanation comes along, that becomes the science of the day. Right now, you deeply believe in a particular theory. You're holding it so tightly that it is a dogma, and you have to defend it as tightly as any fundamentalist religionist supporting their interpretation of their religion. That's okay. As I wrote, you're just defending your job choice. Good on ya! But I think you may be able to go much farther in life when you understand that no scientific theory is eternal. Much of Freud has been abandoned. Even Einstein was judged wrong with his "cosmological constant." Dogmas are always limiting. |
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dmkraig Inner circle 1949 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-01-23 12:15, Pomdini wrote: Oh, I dunno. I've seen stuff on them that is wackier than just about anything here. I've seen dogma, racism, sexism, and various forms of hate masquerading as "psychological truisms" and people yelling at each other (well, metaphorically speaking) with some well-crafted insults. |
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Pomdini New user Some magical day I'll have more than 64 Posts |
Sounds great! Where is it?
“If you don't go after what you want, you'll never have it. If you don't ask, the answer is always no. If you don't step forward, you're always in the same place.”-Milton Erickson
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Yea first year students find a TRUTH so quickly and can't wait to tell the world how dumb they are. Then in about the 3rd year the smart ones figure out they are not quite as informed as they think. After that it becomes possible to talk to them.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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