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Brainbu$ter Veteran user Indianapolis, IN 326 Posts |
Over the years I've heard some reasons to limit the use of playing cards in magic (not just mentalism)
and a few times (such as from Ed Tollock in the Trade Show videos with Ammar) reasons to depend even more on them than is typical. Please chime in. Pros: 1. Most people are more familiar with a deck of cards, than, say, hankerchiefs, these days. 2. You can perform for hours on end with just a pack of cards. 3. Because of the tons of quality effects with cards, it will be more difficult for a spectator to simply google "card trick" and find the solution to the one you did for him (unless of course you revealed the name of the effect "Triumph" or "Ambitious" in your performance). With the very effective but fashionable trick, "Voodoo Ash," a sinister spectator can simply google "ash trick" and discover the method, then tip off your girlfriend and make her cry. 4. I can't think of an effect of magic (mentalism, levitation, penetration, transposition) that can't be demonstrated with cards. Cons: 1. If you perform regularly, you'll have to hand out your deck and watch that awful trick where the layman takes 4 minutes to find your card then smacks the cards until your selection remains between your knuckles. 2. Most people are also (somewhat) familiar with "trick decks," and marked cards. Even when you use a normal deck, there will sometimes be suspicion. 3. Monotony may be an issue with some audiences. I don't bore easily with card magic, but some have said that it's better to vary the performance. On the other hand, Ed Tollock uses only a pack of cards, and is very successful. 4. Cards are less durable than coins. Most spectators abuse the cards. -- I think Dai Vernon once said (probably on the Revelations videos) that you shouldn't open with a card trick. But Nate Leipzig opened with a card trick (spec peeks at card, deck is placed on spec's hand, then when spec inverts deck his card is on the bottom). I've done both. I've noticed that Vernon was right. Vernon said that people have an idea of a "card trick" and it's usually not very good. However, if you open with a trick that winds up quickly, and leaves them frothing at the mouth, then maybe they revise that misconception. I'm still conflicted about this. When I work at TGIFriday's I often open with Brainwave. We learn in House of Cards that Rosini made this a feature for a club-size audience, extending it to what seems from the description to be at least 20 minutes. Ammar said that the floating bill shouldn't begin a performance, because that's all they'll think about throughout the rest of the performance. I suspect the same might be true of Brainwave. |
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cirrus Inner circle his minions made 1751 Posts |
I can google any of the card tricks you mentioned.
google this: card appears on top http://lmgtfy.com/?q=card+appears+on+top (look at the fourth link) deck shuffled face up down all but one turn over. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=deck+shuffled+face+......urn+over (look at the second link) |
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts |
I didn't see one real con.
Hugs and kisses, Ben
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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juggernought Regular user 200 Posts |
A few more pros:
Another few great things about card magic is that there is an endless amount to learn. There are thousands of books on the subject and moves to master. Card magic is a very diverse area of magic. There is visual magic, gambling demonstrations (although not technically magic), psychology, mathematics.... etc. Even if you couldn't touch the deck, there are countless things you could do. A pack of cards is small and you can always have it in your pocket. Whenever you get stuck in a que or have a few minutes spare during the day (outside of practice sessions) you can practice. With regard to the cons you mentioned, I wouldn't really view them as cons. People insistent on showing you a basic trick is not exactly a problem with card magic itself. And anyway, once they realise that you do magic seriously, it is unlikely that they will show you anything they know. With regard to trick decks, that is a problem with presentation, and not with card magic. You could be using a trick deck for the whole performance without the spectator having any suspicion at all, or you could be using a regular deck and the spectator could still be suspicious. With proper audience management and presentation, this problem is easy to solve. In response to the point about monotony, I would not agree with that either. As I previously said, there is an enormous diversity in card magic. Finally, the fact that cards are less durable than coins is once again pretty irrelevant in my opinion. The magic that can be done with cards is all that matters to me, not how long a deck lasts. |
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-05-01 15:41, Brainbu$ter wrote: The way I see it, all of the above are a direct result from the actions of the performer. Psssttt.... It's Eddie Tullock.... SEY |
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts |
SEY- bingo!
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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John C Eternal Order I THINK therefore I wrote 12944 Posts |
No cards in magic? What is the world coming too?
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Engali Elite user 435 Posts |
I think one major con is the monotony, but not even just because they're cards.
From my experiences performing for people and then getting feedback on occasion, I get the distinct sense that they don't view effects the way we do. I know that's kind of a "no duh" statement, but hear me out. For example I don't think that most or even all spectators could tell you what distinguishes the Collectors plot from any sandwich plot. They'll notice that you're primarily using Aces for the former, but they would probably suspect that you could for sandwich effects, too. They might note that you're using four cards to trap three instead of two to trap one, but by and large I get the sense these are differences that ultimately make no difference to the spectator in terms of what the effect is that they experience. This is why I've been working for a while now to really boil down my repertoire to effects that are blatantly different from each other in ways that spectators can not only understand, but agree with. |
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MeetMagicMike Inner circle Gainesville Fl 3501 Posts |
I suppose if I had a couple of weeks to train a layman to be a magician I met give him broad rules like "Don't do just card tricks" or "Never unzip you fly durring a performance". But things like that have no value to you on your own personal exploration.
If you love card tricks and are enthusiastic about them this will be conveyed to your audience. Engali wrote" Quote:
I get the distinct sense that they don't view effects the way we do....I don't think that most...could tell you what distinguishes the Collectors plot from any sandwich plot.... I get the sense these are differences that ultimately make no difference to the spectator in terms of what the effect is that they experience. I'm with the spectators on this. Most card tricks look the same to me. I think that is one of my strengths. I think what makes magician's special is not just the tricks they do but all the tricks they DON'T do. At first I thought that this was sort of the opposite of my previous post but not really. As magician's we end up viewing a lot of tricks as part of the searching and learning process. We are being shown tricks by other magician's who may or may not perform them in the real world. I might see dozens or hundreds of ace assemblies in order to find one that suits me. |
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pepka Inner circle Uh, I'm the one on the right. 5041 Posts |
In my strolling repertoire, I open with a card trick. I close with a card trick. Inbetween, there is a card trick....if there is ample time, MAYBE a coin trick.
Cards are wonderful because you can do SO MUCH with them. Most laymen think of a card trick as pick a card, find a card. My opener, of my own design, involves 2 selections being located and transposing. It also involves a lot of fancy manipulation, which while not for everyone will AUTOMATICALLY show the audience that I know what I'm doing and they won't be seeing me doing Uncle Jack's version of the 21 card trick that he always does at birthday parties. My entire set which contains almost exclusively cards also features a torn and restored card, a color changing deck, the reveal of a specator thought of card while the deck is shuffled by a spectator, multiple selection routine and a card to impossible location. I have entertained professionally for almost 15 years. Corporate events, politicians, restaurants, and cocktail parties...using card tricks. Like Ben said, I don't see one con. |
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-05-02 00:12, Engali wrote: Whaboom. This. On another forum where a bunch of smartypants hang out (and which has somehow forgotten to kick me out) somebody trotted out a great phrase about the egg bag: "The Egg Bag isn't a bag trick, it's an egg trick." Extrapolate that for a moment to a card trick that most people remember seeing: "Card Through Window". If you think about it, you can make a similar statement -- "Card Through Window" isn't a card trick, it's a window trick. Once people start thinking about the cards being the source of the effect, rather than incidental things which are having magic thrust upon them, you starting getting nonsense plots like people mixing Cannibal Cards and Triumph or whatnot.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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pepka Inner circle Uh, I'm the one on the right. 5041 Posts |
Reminds me what someone told me a long time ago. It shouldn't be called the cups and balls, it should be called the balls and cups because.....it's about the balls.
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-05-02 00:12, Engali wrote: Exactly. The objection that card tricks run the risk of looking too similar in a set is a 'con' the way dropping weights on your face, and injuring yourself, is a con with weight lifting. In other words, its the user's flaw, not the tool or the prop. If your spectators are unable to distinguish between tricks in your set... that's your fault. Not a problem with the prop. I've still yet to hear ONE objection for the venerable pack of cards. Ben
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-05-02 10:47, Ben Train wrote: Actually Ben, I'll have to admit that Pros and Cons are very subjective. But I believe that the majority of the magicians believe that the tricks/effects are what the audience focuses on-- so they naturally concentrate on the effects/methods. Don't get me wrong, the effect and method are vitally important but in and of themselves they are not what connects with an audience. That takes a human being, not choreography. BOTH of them are just as important and too often we ignore one and focus on the other. As Ron Bauer says: Quote:
If you're a magician, you must FOOL 'EM in order to ENTERTAIN 'EM. Now allow me to paraphrase Harry Anderson: Quote:
Years later, I don't want someone saying "Remember the tricks that guy did?" Instead, I want them to say "Remember that guy who did those tricks?" To me, those quotes in no way contradict each other. Instead, they complement each other. SEY |
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Engali Elite user 435 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-05-02 10:47, Ben Train wrote: I guess that's a fair point, but then you'd have to admit that that one major perceived pro, that there are SO many "different effects" you can do in card magic, is simply not the case as far as the spectators are concerned. I think one valid, indisputable con is that they are seen as cliche by laymen and they already associate the tool, cards, with manipulation and skill more so than actual magic. Of course, this is a generalization and spectators clearly fall on a continuum on how much they think card magic is just skill based, but I would hazard to guess that more feel this way about cards than just about any other tool used in magic. This association is two fold: on one level it's because cards are also associated with gambling and that is all about skill and manipulation, on another level it has to do with an association specifically between card magic and skill/manipulation. In other words, the tool itself as well as its application is associated with methods that run counter to the experience we want to impart as magicians. You can try to dance around this point by saying that it's because so many magicians use cards and therefore it's the magicians' faults and not cards, but where does that really leave us? The association between cards and skill remain in the collective unconscious of spectators and this con exists irrespective of what any magician does today, tomorrow, or the next day. I wouldn't go as far as Derren Brown in saying that it's almost impossible to create "resonant magic" with a deck of cards because of this prejudice, but I do think you are running uphill more so than with other forms of magic. |
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-05-02 14:35, Engali wrote: OK. So they don't know that there's a wide variety of material out there. I see that as an advantage. Spectators probably don't care as long as the performer demonstrates he's very different from what they've seen in the past. Having a large number of effects, variations and material gives you a greater permutation with which to accomplish that. How many "different effects" do you believe the spectator thinks exist? 12? 6? 3? How do you know? Do you think they actually take the time to make a list? Let's take it to the extreme. Assume that spectators lump all card tricks into the "pick a card" variety. That's easily circumvented by making sure that the first effect(s) you do don't have them select a card. Card Warp, Waving The Aces, Color Changes all fit that bill as well as others. Not only that, even if spectators don't perceive/realize that there are a huge number of "different effects" in Card Magic-- That's a plus. It means you know what they're thinking and can therefore circumvent their assumptions. Quote:
On 2012-05-02 14:35, Engali wrote: I don't think that's indisputable at all. First, it assumes that they've actually thought about it. Second, it assumes that they seen enough card effects based on skill that they've made the association with skill and manipulation. Third, even if they have made the association, it's not hard wired into them and can be overcome in about 2 minutes. (see above) And look at what's in that cliche: Uncles who do card tricks and tricks the ones they learn in in grade school. Almost without exception, those effects are low quality, over simplified effects based on math or other dodges. I have yet to see one of those contain false riffle shuffles, palming and well done color changes. Yes, some really bad magicians contribute to that perception but you can overcome that in 60 seconds. Regarding the media-- they might get the idea of skill from card cheats in movies, but that's an opportunity, not a con. All you have to do is demonstrate an effect that goes beyond their perception-- like a Torn and Restored Card. Additionally, I'd wager that the number of times an average person has seen an actual magician perform Card Magic on television is less than a few dozen times and those guys ain't doing a self-working, deal three piles and give me a small number kinda tricks. Quote:
On 2012-05-02 14:35, Engali wrote: Spectators only have the ability to associate cards with methods that they know about, as I hinted at above. At the very best, for example, they might know you can hide a card in your hand and might even know the term palming. But that knowledge is rendered useless by the competent professional. Many times I've had a spectator tell me they viewed a show (or YouTube video) that exposes specific techniques. In five minutes I've used the same techniques they mentioned ("holding two cards together") and they're convinced I did something completely different. Bottom line: perceptions can be changed. Quote:
On 2012-05-02 14:35, Engali wrote: First, what evidence do you have that the association is there in the "collective unconscious"? Second, I find it hard to believe that someone with your skill and knowledge cannot think of Card Effects that eliminate skill in a spectator's mind. Finally, you're a smart guy Engali... surely you realize that someone's perceptions about this stuff can be changed fairly easily. I'm not out to change the perceptions of the "collective unconscious". I'm out to change the perceptions of the audience that's in front of me. And that's easy. SEY |
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Brainbu$ter Veteran user Indianapolis, IN 326 Posts |
So many excellent responses!
Johncesta, I never said no cards in magic. I've done entire shows with just a deck of cards. I love cards. However, you must admit that the apex of magic cannot be a card trick, no? If you really had magical super powers, would you pull out a deck of playing cards to prove it? On the other hand, Canasta used a s___ deck to great effect w no suspicion. |
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts |
The first thing a lot of people think of when they imagine magical powers is using them to get money. Cards could be used to get money. Therefore I could see the association between cards and magical powers, at least for some folks.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts |
[quote]On 2012-05-20 09:05, Brainbu$ter wrote:
If you really had magical super powers, would you pull out a deck of playing cards to prove it? Yes.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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cirrus Inner circle his minions made 1751 Posts |
Most card magic just look like tricks and puzzles. There isn't a lot of magic going on. I stay with my statement that only 1 percent of card magic looks like real magic. The rest is just tricks and puzzles.
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