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critter
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I think we should poke nature with a stick just to see what will happen. Maybe she'll give us candy.
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EsnRedshirt
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Quote:
On 2012-05-07 23:02, critter wrote:
I think we should poke nature with a stick just to see what will happen. Maybe she'll give us candy.

And maybe she'll just release all the bees! #$%@!
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EsnRedshirt
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Quote:
On 2012-05-07 22:57, Woland wrote:
Quote:
Is there ANYTHING, any technology, any activity, anything at all that humanity can ever do to alter the climate? Do you believe it's simply not possible for humans to affect climate? Or that it is possible but the data doesn't support the claim?


1) Whether or not there is a "global climate" that can be summed up in a single temperature is questionable.
2) The current climates in the world are not significantly warmer than they have been at times in the pre-industrial past.
3) The truth of the assertion that the rather modest increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide that can be attributed to human industry are capable of causing catastrophic effects due to a significant warming of the world's climates rests on highly convoluted models and extensively massaged data.
4) Even if there is a "global climate," and even if it warmer now than it was during the Ice Age, and even if some of that warming can be attributed to human activity, that the consequences will be catastrophic or even negative at all is far from proven.
5) As tommy reminds us, the whole carbon-credit, carbon-trading business is more dishonest than a grifter's monte.
6) As a number of municipalities in Australia are finding out, the remedies that the "green fascists" apply to the carbon dioxide "problem" are expensive at best, and if implemented on a world scale, would have catastrophic results. The lives of hundreds of millions of people would be adversely affected by dismantling world industrial civilization, and many millions would die.

1) Maybe not, but look at weather trends.
2) Yes they are. Of course, that does depend on which data points you believe.
3) Again, that depends on which data points you believe. Are you going to believe someone who's studied for years to get a degree in their particular branch of science, or are you going to go with "gut feelings"?
4) By who's measure?
5) Of course, once Goldmann Sachs got a hold of it.
6) Source this, please. If the predictions about global warming are correct, far more people will die as a result.
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balducci
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Anyone remember the Great Fog of 1952 in London?

"On 4 December 1952, an anticyclone settled over a windless London, causing a temperature inversion with cold, stagnant air trapped under a layer (or "lid") of warm air. The resultant fog, mixed with chimney smoke, particulates such as those from vehicle exhausts, and other pollutants such as sulphur dioxide, formed a persistent smog, which blanketed the capital the following day. The presence of tarry particles of soot gave the smog its yellow-black colour, hence the nickname "peasouper". The absence of significant wind prevented its dispersal and allowed an unprecedented accumulation of pollutants. When the smog eventually cleared away there was a black-grey covering of slimy soot particles on all of the top surfaces out of doors. This sooty grime stayed there until a few days later when the first rains came. This soot covering was then washed off the surface of evergreen leaves, buildings and pavements, etc., into gutters and down the drains in dirty black rivulets. The pungent smell about in the atmosphere was of acrid wet soot, which made the eyes and nostrils smart for those unfortunate to be caught out in the open."

"There was no panic, as London was renowned for its fog. In the weeks that ensued, however, statistics compiled by medical services found that the fog had killed 4,000 people. Most of the victims were very young, elderly, or had pre-existing respiratory problems. In February 1953, Lieutenant-Colonel Lipton suggested in the House of Commons that the fog had caused 6,000 deaths and that 25,000 more people had claimed sickness benefits in London during that period. Most of the deaths were caused by respiratory tract infections from hypoxia and as a result of mechanical obstruction of the air passages by pus arising from lung infections caused by the smog. The lung infections were mainly bronchopneumonia or acute purulent bronchitis superimposed upon chronic bronchitis."

"More recent research suggests that the number of fatalities was considerably greater, at about 12,000."
"We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-05-07 21:30, mastermindreader wrote:
The problem was that as soon as Obama said he agreed with that approach, the right abandoned it and suddenly started calling their own idea "socialist." It's easy to see, then, who has politicized the issue.


Who hasn't politicized the issue?! Certainly not The Prez.
It's the nexus of the crisis
And the origin of storms
mastermindreader
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You're right. He hasn't really mentioned it much at all since the Republicans voted it down. That's one criticism I have of him, he doesn't hit back hard enough and is too quick to compromise. Hopefully that will change in his second term.

(I realize, of course, that you were being facetious, but he really hasn't pushed on cap and trade.)
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GlenD
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I'm with voting it down and keeping it down. I would rather place my bets on not shutting down industry, energy, economies and everything else that we know will be very bad. Put the brakes on the fear mongering exagerrated "we are responsible for changes in the global temperature" nonsense. The actual facts surrounding what we are adding to the atmosphere and the observed temperature variations just do not correlate with the radical recommendations that are continually offered. Obviously there is something more behind all this and it is not for the good of the people (that includes all of us, by the way).

GlenD
"A miracle is something that seems impossible but happens anyway" - Griffin

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mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-05-08 11:56, GlenD wrote:
I would rather place my bets on not shutting down industry, energy, economies and everything else that we know will be very bad...



I agree. But since no one has suggested or advocated shutting down industry, energy or economies, what is your point? Are you honestly saying that no measures should be taken to reasonably reduce carbon emissions? Should we just remove all environmental regulations and allow corporations to do whatever they feel like in their quest for profit?
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tommy
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Quote:
On 2012-05-07 22:59, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
5) As tommy reminds us, the whole carbon-credit, carbon-trading business is more dishonest than a grifter's monte.


Except when it was a Republican idea, right?


No wrong.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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mastermindreader
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Off topic for a moment- Tommy, are you an American or have you ever lived in the United States? Just wondering because I got the impression that you were English, but you seem to have strong opinions about American politics.
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MagicSanta
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He is an anti US limey but we love the lil fella. Glenn West is another furner obsessed with us.

Say, you know what causes carbon emmissions? Volcano eruptions, maybe we should nuke em.
mastermindreader
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According to Ronald Reagan, "Trees cause more pollution than automobiles do."

That was in 1981 - just about the same time that the quality of education in the US began to drop.
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PaulPacific
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LMAO!!
:D
Blessings on thee, little man,
barefoot boy with cheeks of tan...
Outward sunshine; inward joy,
Blessings on thee, barefoot boy! :-D
rockwall
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Quality of education didn't start dropping until 1981?!?! Sweet! I got in under the wire.

Was that around the time that all the schools unionized?
mastermindreader
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Actually, the NEA was formed in 1857. So no partisan point can be awarded. Sorry.

http://www.nea.org/home/11608.htm
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Woland
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The date of the formation of the NEA and the point in time at which "all the schools unionized" are not necessarily identical.
GlenD
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You are completely oblivious of the consequences of remaining heavily dependent on foreign oil or making it impossible to produce energy from coal, not allowing nuclear energy, construction and operation of manufacturing facilities... let's see what have I left out??? Oh yeah, we can feel free to use windmills and solar panels... until something is found to be detrimental to a bug or the environment in some other way. The clear end result is shutting down energy, industries and economies. So, what is it about my earlier point that you don't get???
"A miracle is something that seems impossible but happens anyway" - Griffin

"Any future where you succeed, is one where you tell the truth." - Griffin (Griffin rocks!)
GlenD
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And no, I don't feel like we should take NO measures to reduce carbon emissions or remove ALL environmental regulations BUT we should'nt over-reach with these measures and regulations to the point where they become impossible to meet. The envelope can only be pushed so far and needs to be compatible with where we are in our technology and abilities. It does not have to be an either/or scenario. The EPA needs oversight and a little less authority when it comes to enforcement of many of it's ever increasing regulations, IMO.

Glen
"A miracle is something that seems impossible but happens anyway" - Griffin

"Any future where you succeed, is one where you tell the truth." - Griffin (Griffin rocks!)
EsnRedshirt
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Reductio ad absurdum, Glen? The majority of people are not talking about shutting down the economy, just cleaning up the manufacturing and production sector a bit.

Anyway, I'm all for nuclear energy. Can we keep the spent fuel rods in your back yard?
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tommy
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Bob

May I ask you to quote anything I have said about American party politics? What do mean by "Except when it was a Republican idea, right?" and by "you seem to have strong opinions about American politics."
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
GlenD
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They don't need to, it's a result of bad policies following bad policies, Red! We have cleaned up manufacturing decades ago. While global warming hoaxers want us to buy into their fear-mongering propaganda, they want to turn around and try to tell us that their crazy ideas and policies will NOT have very severe negative consequences on our economy and way of life. Sorry, you cant have it both ways. It's way beyond simply cleaning up manufacturing. Get real. Maybe you missed the previous discussions about nuclear waste and recycling, etc. Maybe you should host an Occupy party in your backyard, no bbq though bad for the planet and all.
Here is a nice scenario, soon to be brought to you frsh from those advanced folks from across the pond...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/......rns.html

See, now you call me or others raising the real alarm nuts or irrelevant, whatever... But after the fact, the spin will be something like, well you know this aint so bad, whats wrong with burning candles and walking places? It's so much better this way blah blah blah
Glen
"A miracle is something that seems impossible but happens anyway" - Griffin

"Any future where you succeed, is one where you tell the truth." - Griffin (Griffin rocks!)
critter
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What is wrong with walking places?
"Courtesy is as much a mark of a gentleman as courage."
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MagicSanta
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70% of the county where Yucca mountain is are in favor of the storage facility being there. I think the others have meth labs.

So we liberals like coal and oil plants? Much cleaner way to produce. Powr. It doesn't matter because atomic energy is dead, enviromentalist hate hydro electric, solar and wind are not sufficient, oil and goal pollute. We are back to mass extermination of people to reduce the need. I fully expect the tree huggers and global warmers o volunteer to take a non lead bullet for the home team. Please wear natural ibers since you will be left where you fall for a food source for animals and fertalizer.
GlenD
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Nothing wrong with it, Critter. I frequently walk to my work. But is it ok with you if it remains a choice? I would still like to be able to drive (longer than 40 miles at a time) now and then also. that's my point. Energy, fuel, you name it and it is all in jeapordy (and not because of supply) for the generations following us because of the global warming hysteria and some of the proposed policies/schemes that are not far away from being forced down our throats!

Glen
"A miracle is something that seems impossible but happens anyway" - Griffin

"Any future where you succeed, is one where you tell the truth." - Griffin (Griffin rocks!)
critter
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Never said it shouldn't be a choice. Was only curious.
"Courtesy is as much a mark of a gentleman as courage."
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mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-05-08 17:32, tommy wrote:
Bob

May I ask you to quote anything I have said about American party politics? What do mean by "Except when it was a Republican idea, right?" and by "you seem to have strong opinions about American politics."


That was in direct response to your saying cap and trade was not a good idea. Cap and trade was a major issue in our last election. Was it a major issue in Great Britain as well?
Bob Cassidy
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GlenD
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No, you did'nt but it was kind of implied in my post that it could become a reality as a result of lack of available fuel/energy to do otherwise. No problems. I wonder if I would get super powers if nuclear rods were stored in my backyard, that would be cool.
"A miracle is something that seems impossible but happens anyway" - Griffin

"Any future where you succeed, is one where you tell the truth." - Griffin (Griffin rocks!)
mastermindreader
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Glen- I don't recall anyone calling you nuts, but you seem to have no problem calling people who don't agree with you "hoaxers," "oblivious" or any other derogatory terms you use to change your posts into partisan rants that have little relationship to what I and other "leftists" actually think.

To reiterate a question I asked earlier- Why is it that the same people who advocate the teaching of creationism in science classes also refer to global warming as "junk science?" (The latter canard BTW came from the Heritage Foundation, who previously argued that the link between smoking and lung cancer was also "junk science."}
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GlenD
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Is a hoaxer a partisan term? Hmm I thought a hoax is a hoax and one who attempts to sell it to others a hoaxer, simple as that. Could be Republican or Democrat. I havent used any partisan terms (lately), have I? I think everyone here gets a little riled up now and then and throws terms around. All in all though, we have some good discussion here.

Glen
"A miracle is something that seems impossible but happens anyway" - Griffin

"Any future where you succeed, is one where you tell the truth." - Griffin (Griffin rocks!)
MagicSanta
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Public transportation maybe? Where I live we have no public trans at all. There is none to the two main emploment areas from any of the residential areas. Walking and biking would be a min of 20 miles along dangerous highways or an interstate neither of which has bike lanes or sidewalks or lights.
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