Well, to be fair, it sounds like Ricky Jay's comments weren't made to kick start a conversation. He was just stating what he felt.

The Best posts in this thread were made by. Michael Vincent. Hideo Kato. Ben Train, and Steven Youell. For those that don't understand no explanation will suffice. For those that do. No explanation is needed.

I'd ask Café members not to discuss this outside the privacy of the Café as It could hurt Mr. Jay's career.

Books written:

Celebrations of Curious Characters
Extraordinary Exhibitions: The Wonderful Remains of an Enormous Head, The Whimsiphusicon & Death to the Savage Unitarians - a collection of 17th, 18th, and 19th-century broadsides[8]
Jay's Journal of Anomalies
Dice: Deception, Fate, and Rotten Luck
Learned Pigs & Fireproof Women
Cards as Weapons
Ricky Jay Plays Poker

Television credits:

The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson (October 26, 1970)
Saturday Night Live (1977)
Arsenio (1988)
Learned Pigs and Fireproof Women – 1 hour special for American TV (1989)
Simon Drake's Secret Cabaret (UK)
Ricky Jay and His 52 Assistants – 1 hour version of his Off-Broadway show, taped for HBO (1996)
Hustlers, Hoaxsters, Pranksters, Jokesters and Ricky Jay (1996)
The X-Files – "The Amazing Maleeni" (2000)
MythBusters – Episode 20, "Exploding Jawbreaker, Static Cannon, Deadly Playing Cards." Ricky demonstrated card throwing, and the speed of his throws was clocked. (2003)
Deadwood – Eddie Sawyer (2004), Season 1
Tales From The Crypt (Unknown)
The Unit (2007)
Kidnapped (2007)
Lie to Me (2009)
FlashForward – Flosso (2010)

Film credits:

House of Games (1987)
Things Change (1988)
Homicide (1991)
Leap of Faith (1992) - Cons and Frauds Consultant
The Ranger, the Cook and a Hole in the Sky (1995) (TV)
The Spanish Prisoner (1997)
Boogie Nights (1997)
Tomorrow Never Dies (1997)
Magnolia (1999)
Mystery Men (1999)
State and Main (2000)
Heist (2001)
Heartbreakers (2001)
Incident at Loch Ness (2004)
Last Days (2005)
The Illusionist (2006)
The Prestige (2006)
Redbelt (2008)
The Great Buck Howard (2008)
The Brothers Bloom (2009)

Actually, the statement is one worthy of study, although not necessarily from the standpoint of starting a debate about who the best card handler is. Rather, it's a nice example of the sort of patter one can use in a show in order to add credibility to an effect. The line comes from the preamble leading up to the Center Dealing demonstration, and its purpose is arguably to set up the mystique of the move -- if Vernon and Miller are nobodies, then their interest in a specific move might not carry the same weight as it would if they're the preeminent authorities on card sleight-of-hand. Instead, it makes for a nice description of two grown men leaving their homes in different parts of the country and immediately heading to some obscure location to find some apparent Holy Grail of a technique. Add to this the fact that Jay is continuously reinforcing his persona as a learned historian of the art, and that line in the script makes a lot more sense.

The only thing I know about the two greatest card handlers in America is that I ain't one of them.

I defy you to disagree with that!

I'm the other one. Maybe we can get Mr. Jay to use us as two examples of the worst card handlers in America?

"The only thing I know about the two greatest card handlers in America is that I ain't one of them."

Nor am I or millions of others. While the question will obviously elicit a list longer than two people, the responses will tend to be, in the aggregate, a list of those who are excellent with cards. The exclusion of me and the millions of other mediocrities happens tacitly, while the loud debate about who belongs at the top obscures that it is difficultyngiving arbitrary discussion. Foremost, it's difficult to see how that's a useless exercise, or something that impedes, or is mutually exclusive to, "self-actualization" and other worthy goals. That there's a lot of subjectivity in any evaluation, and determining who is "best" will invariably result in multiple posts here treating that as a major insight and a reason to entirely abandon discussions about who is best. Subjectivity dominates the ultimate hair-splitting as to who is best, obviously, but the fact that the same 25 or so names come up every single time suggests that subjectivity is often, and nearly always, guided by criteria that are effectively objective. Basketball players continue to develop skills and become individually excellent despite the redundant conversation about who the best player is, and despite the exaggerated sense of objectivity that comes from serially proclaiming Michael Jordan the best. The exaggerated emphasis on the subjective element here is probably no more harmful. Even so, the crusade against "who is the best..." discussions seems, at best, an inferior, indirect way to make a statement about "what really matters." And the suggestion that those who don't already agree with and understand the purported nuance underlying the rejection of the kind of question that started this thread seems intended to impose an orthodoxy and halt the discussion, and without any further elaboration of why soliciting opinions as to who is best at something is manifestly a bad thing. That's an oddly absolutist position for those claiming that subjectivity prevails in all matters of artistic judgment. And even a cursory look at how the issue is received in other fields, with far more extensively developed inquiries around the same points, suggests it is far from self-evident that the OP's original question is pointless or harmful or, above all, should never be asked.

I have tremendous respect for the abilities of Jay, Vernon, and Miller.
That said, Cardini often worked in America and was a SAM President

"often worked in America and was a SAM President"

At least we are identifying some important criteria.

"Why? Who cares?" ?

Because it can make for interesting discussion, that's why. That's not to say that this kind of subject hasn't been done to death but it is certainly doesn't make for pointless conversation, IMO (unless one is bound and determined to come up with a consensus).

"Best" is always subjective, but it can make for great conversation - unless one feels that a particular conversation has been done to death. Or if one doesn't have a strong opinion on the subject, or enough knowledge of the major players deserving consideration.

If one is bored with the question/that type of question, that's one thing...that aside, it can be intersesting to hear peoples' thoughts, and especially the 'why' behind those thoughts.

If one doesn't have any strong opinion

Well the thread title was "in America" so I had to establish that Pitchford, though Welsh, might still qualify

Who cares who is the best? Magician's care...off course they do but in fact the audience believes you're the best anyway!

One of my favorites is probably Bill Malone...I love his card-work!

isn't it great when your audience say "YOU" are the best I have ever seen?

No opinion, but I am old enough that I have a nice memory of Charlie Miller. He came to D.C. in the mid-1960's, and was staying at another magician's house whose name I don't recall. Since I was a card guy and had a little book of my own that was going the rounds, I was invited over to meet him. When I was introduced, he said some nice things about my little book then asked me to do something for him. I did something or other that was hardly in his category, but he praised it as if it was much better than it was. Then we all got down to watching Charlie do magic as only he could do.

I agree with Ben.

He said Forte, right?

Fair chance the two greatest are unknown, and plan to keep it that way...

While it's fun to speculate, any meaningful assessments would depend on how you define "... card handler." It did not say magician, so perhaps Mr. Mystoffeless is right, it could be a gambler who keeps his identity secret. It could also be a long time dealer in Reno or Vegas that's works with a deck of cards most every day.

Marlo and Vernon were prolific creators of effects with cards (as is Harry Lorayne) but that's a separate question, nor related to card handling ability.

Bill Malone is technically great, but what I love about him is how entertaining he is. Again, a different question. Three other guys spring to mind, alas they're no longer with us: Eddie Fechter Matt Schulien and Frank Everhart. They worked regularly doing card magic for lay people and learned to entertain because of the constant feedback.

If you ask who is technically good at the biggest variety of card handling skills, than Daryl's name has to be on that list.

Dennis Loomis

And there is no stated reason as to why we are limiting consideration to Americans. There are great card handlers in other countries, of course. In fact Vernon was Canadian by birth although he lived most of his life the the USA.

Good points Dennis and it could also very well be the Buck Twins, Dan & Dave Buck, as to "card handlers." I would doubt doing card tricks would be all that hard for them after seeing what they can do so uniquely with a deck cards or their overall greater incluence on others as to the more clever handlings of a deck of cards. They are incredible card handlers, are they not? Not to mention they do good card magic as well. And can certainly be in consideration under the title here as to "The best two card handlers in America." I'm just sayin'.

I'm thinkin there are cardfolk out there today that may not have the time, history or published works equal too (yet) Miller or Vernon but based on what I've witnessed in my few years around the game (for whatever that may be worth) is that BOTH would (should) be proud and amazed by what has since been accomplished, changed, tweeked, advanced, added too and even what has been created beyond their own thinking back in the day!

Just a random thought,

MMc

And did I mention that Mick loves the Blow Change?

Glad to see you still around my friend.