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magicalaurie
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tommy
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Where is it?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
WitchDocChris
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Why do they require greater proof than other claims? Shouldn't all claims require the same amount of proof - enough to know it's correct or incorrect?

I see this video and I see someone relating their personal experience, then providing a couple metaphors, and then stating what she believes and giving advice she thinks will help people be happier. Which part, exactly, are you feeling objectionable to?
Christopher
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tommy
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An extraordinary claim is one that is directly contradicted by a massive amount of existing evidence. There is a massive amount of evidence that pigs walk as opposed to fly.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
WitchDocChris
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The word "extraordinary" can be interpreted two ways. Either a) meaning that the proof must match the claim, or b) the proof must be more so than with other claims.

If a, then it's unnecessary. Obviously the way to prove that, for example, pigs fly is by showing someone pigs that fly. That's not extraordinary proof, it's just proof. That's the same level of proof as saying that heavy things hurt when they fall on your foot, and proving it by dropping something heavy on someone's foot.

If b, then that's not very scientific. Why do some claims demand more proof than others? Proof is proof. Demanding greater proof for one thing is just a way to move the goalpost so that the person making the demand for extraordinary proof never has to deal with being wrong.

Sorry, I know I'm going a bit off the rails of this thread, it's just a phrase that gets tossed around a lot as if that's the answer to everything odd ever.

Back to the video - as I said, she's relating her experience (which is similar to many other claims in NDEs throughout history), she's relating some metaphors she uses to explain her model the world to others, and then she's saying she thinks people would be healthier and happier if they were nicer to each other and strove to be loving. Which part seems extraordinary? Granted, it does seem to imply that being nice and loving people will cure or prevent cancer which is not supported by current evidence - is that the part that bugs you?
Christopher
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tommy
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Our Magic is a never ending battle against superstition, credulity and chicanery in every form and our opposition is the charlatan. There seems to me to be a massive amount of evidence that there is no magical cure for cancer yet she is telling people, who may have cancer etcetera, that they can spiritually leave their body and return to cure it and not only that but also claims they can communicate with the dead, because she claims that is just what she did so. Is she a charlatan or not, that is the question.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
WitchDocChris
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No she didn't. She said that was what she experienced. Her story was that she experienced a disconnection of her consciousness (something that has been reported many times and I think warrants further investigation, if we can figure out how to investigate it) - and that she felt the spirits of her father and best friend telling her it wasn't her time. Then she woke up and her cancer went into remission in a very short period. Random, seemingly miraculous cures do happen sometimes - to my knowledge we have absolutely no idea why it happens.

Then she said, in 5 different ways, that she thinks the world would be better off if people were nice to each other, and if we focused on loving ourselves and each other.

Quote:
Our Magic is a never ending battle against superstition, credulity and chicanery in every form and our opposition is the charlatan.


Logical fallacy, false consensus. While I agree that many people who are magicians and/or mentalists do feel this need to "battle" superstition and Charlatans, not everyone does. While I do not have data to back this up, I would be willing to wager that most magicians don't actually care one way or the other. So when you say "our magic" you're assuming everyone agrees with you. I know for a fact that is not true, because I do not agree with this statement.

Further, I am not out to fight charlatans. Heck, some of my absolute best material has been taught to me BY charlatans. My performances are designed to encourage an audience to look for magic in the world. To explore connections and coincidences, and to think about history with a modern eye. Because we call things impossible when we don't understand them, but if we advance our knowledge we must remember to look back at those things and see if we haven't figured out what was going on.
Christopher
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tommy
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It is curious, but nevertheless it is true, that some prefer to take the word of a charlatan telling them a nice story than to look for the palpable facts which may not tell a story not so sweet tale.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
NYCTwister
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If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
tommy
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When we perform our magic, we educate the public of the capabilities of trickery, without which they may be imposed upon by any charlatan. As for the cult which preaches the message that cancer can be caused and cured by a person's emotional wellbeing, they are deadly dangerous to those poor souls who have never seem our magic performed.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Feb 18, 2017, tommy wrote:
When we perform our magic, we educate the pgublic of the capabilities of trickery, without which they may be imposed upon by any charlatan.


Or, we show them a trick, they're entertained, and that's the end of it.
You do realize that it's 2017, not 1717 right?

Quote:
As for the cult which preaches the message that cancer can be caused and cured by a person's emotional wellbeing


A person's mental state has A LOT to do with their physical well being. This has been proven.
That's not to say that simply believing you'll get better will make it so, but a optimistic mindset can't hurt

Quote:
they are deadly dangerous to those poor souls who have never seem our magic performed.


Nonsense.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
WitchDocChris
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Quote:
On Feb 18, 2017, tommy wrote:
When we perform our magic, we educate the public of the capabilities of trickery, without which they may be imposed upon by any charlatan. As for the cult which preaches the message that cancer can be caused and cured by a person's emotional wellbeing, they are deadly dangerous to those poor souls who have never seem our magic performed.


False consensus again. You're assuming everyone performs as (I assume) you do. Not remotely the case. I never even hint at trickery or say anything about how the techniques I use can be used to convince people of extraordinary claims. Why bother?

Until I see some studies that show a statistically significant number of people who have avoided joining a cult or being conned specifically because of a magic show they saw, I will maintain that the idea of "saving" people from charlatans is pure ego stroking. The vast majority of people who see a magic show are not going to connect anything that magician does on stage with something they may see in a con or charlatan scenario. Furthermore, all these cynical magicians are doing is giving ways for charlatans and con men to approach at another angle.

If I were going to go down the charlatan route, I would watch as many "debunker" magic shows as I could find, and I would specifically use that stuff to lead marks down the garden path and hook them all the more.

Magicians are not saving anyone to my knowledge.

Furthermore, this lady is not starting a cult. A cult is, by definition, "a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object." All she said was that she thinks we should be nicer to each other, and specifically seek to love ourselves and each other.

Given the findings on placebo studies, where people actually do show statistically significant improvements when given placebos (even knowing they are receiving placebos), I think it's safe to say that it is very likely that mental state is directly connected to health.
Christopher
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Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4
tommy
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The stories of the cult send out a clear message: somehow, in some way, we ought to be thinking ourselves better, rather than focusing on doctors, surgery and drugs. Those not educated of the capabilities of trickery, the suckers, would have no reason to disbelieve the preaching of the cult. So should a sucker fall ill, then he would try to cure himself with the magic cure of the cult, rather than go to his doctor.

If you are looking for an out of body experience, we do have few bottles left of it. For only $19.84 the intelligence of the universe can be yours.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
WitchDocChris
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Ok, I'm out. You've clearly decided that you have the absolute truth and are not remotely open to any other idea.
Christopher
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tommy
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If it feels right, then it's right for me.

That is according to the cult.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
magicalaurie
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I think she speaks common sense. As she says- we're all born knowing that being happy is fundamentally healthy.

Speaking from my medical background, to me, the description of what happened to her reminds me of something I've seen mentioned in natural medicine- a healing crisis.

And, spontaneous remission/regression of cancer is not new.

Whether she had cancer or not, I'm not here to prove. She was ill, she was suffering, now she's well and happy. I know first hand what she means when she says she was killing herself long before she got her disease. And life can be saved by loving yourself and allowing yourself to be who you are. Simple truth.

Who's rejecting medicine here, tommy? Anita was treated with chemotherapy and remained in hospital for weeks following her crisis.

"The spontaneous healing of cancer is a phenomenon that has been observed for hundreds and thousands of years and after having been the subject of many controversies, it is now accepted as an indisputable fact."...

"This article peeks into the history of immunostimulation and the role of innate immunity in inducing a cure even in advanced stages of malignancy. The value of Coley's observation is that rather than surviving additional years with cancer, many of the patients who received his therapy lived the rest of their lives without cancer. In our relentless efforts to go beyond nature to fight cancer, we often overlook the facts nature provides to heal our maladies."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3312698/

Image



"Over 2,000 years ago, the Stoic Lucius Seneca wrote 'it is part of the cure to wish to be cured' Ė and today we are seeing evidence that the mind-body connection does indeed exist.

It was not until the 1970s that there was documented evidence of a strong link between mindset and physical health. This field is called psychoneuroimmunology (PNI), and itís dedicated to uncovering the connection between the mind and the body."
http://www.fhcp.com/blog/how-your-mindse......-health/
tommy
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"Indian mysticism has such fascination for and pernicious influence over some people, that it leads them to accept without question the statements of every exponent of it who professes supernatural power. Everything possible should be done to check the spread of this pernicious doctrine of superstition."

J. N. MASKELYNE

Is she Indian?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
tommy
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Let us assume she had cancer that like many before her she refused a certain treatment because of the side effects, then changed her mind, had the treatment, which worked and she recovered. Let us also assume that in the course of the treatment she had a vivid dream and put her recovery down to that, after which she went about preaching her dangerous message; a dangerous message according to the medical profession for your information, believe it or not. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
WitchDocChris
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Except she specifically said she'd been on chemo and other treatments. You're making assumptions to confirm your existing decisions - confirmation bias.
Christopher
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tommy
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She said lots of things which assume true to confirm your existing decisions - confirmation bias.

Anyway, why are you back out your closet?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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