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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts 
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Exit signs are boring yet P.T.Barnum made them an ATTRACTION. Sorry if I am going against the grain here but an effect IN ITSELF is mostly made or broken by the presentational of the PERFORMER.
How many magicians have taken what we consider to be GREAT card effects and turn them into yawners? Actually ANY magic for that matter. When a magician says: "This is an ordinary pack of cards." I want to put that magician in a supercollider and tell him to sit in the corner. (Think about it  )
"The cards are well shuffled." I want to rail at the magician that stating the obvious actually weakens the effect. "Do you want to change your mind or are you happy with the one you have?" I want to know why that magician is so fond of schtick. There is a reason it is called that you know. "Just think of a card in your mind." What, as opposed to my PANCREAS??!! And guess what? Those same people who know about DLs, etc., are the EASIEST to mystify. Look, people are still enthralled by the Linking Rings yet even my puppy knows there is that certain something! If any game has to be upped it is in our presentations. Dove workers are starting to break away from the Channing Pollock look. BRAVO! Not every ilusionist has wind blowing through his hair. HALLELUJAH!! Hmmm, a good card trick doesn't have a spectator do remembering? Not an attack here but have you EVER performed Bannon's Timely Departure for instance? Counting? I suppose under the criteria a poster has set forth that we should just nix Las Vegas Leaper or Red Sea Passover?? Yet these three effects have all the ingredients - when performed even competently - of VERNON'S criteria. But try this: teach someone an effect then watch that person try to perform it. I wager you will see in that performance the same mistakes you see in the magic club. Finally, if ANY effect annoys a spectator, I would offer that perhaps the performer needs to look at him/herself FIRST and ask, "What could I do to make this better?" Ïs this effect right for me?" These are hard questions but ultimately make us grow as performers. When I am in cover bands there are songs I refuse to sing or play because I cannot do a good job with them; they do not fit me as much as I love the song, I HAVE to realize that it is best to leave that song to another. The same goes for magic. I have tried VERY hard for a number of years to really shine with Sam the Bellhop. I get lackluster responses at BEST. It's not the effect's fault. It simply does not fit/work for me. I WILL concede that some effect variants are cumbersome in methodology. But with all due respect to the poster who claimed that only TWO effects spring to mind as magical (OOTW and ACAAN) I would ask what in your mind sets these two effects apart or more precisely what makes them more magical than say Guy Hollingworth's Restoration? I have an answer but I am curious to hear yours. (My answer is in this post). Namaste, Vlad |
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Atom3339 Inner circle Spokane, WA 3242 Posts
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^ Vlad, one of the posts I've EVER read! Very insightful.
Regarding this topic: A stranger comes to your table with a deck of cards in hand to show you some magic. Groan. Why? Because almost every card trick appears to be the same. Because you've seen attempts at card tricks that failed. Because a friend or family fumbled a great routine trying to get attention. Because the stranger is BORING. A few reasons. On the other hand, my friend Lam invited me to coffee to show me a few "card tricks". I like the guy. Dresses nice. Good conversationalist. I'd hang out with him cards or no. I also know him as a skillful magician. I look forward to seeing his magic. His presentation with his SKILL with cards. He does a Brainwave effect, Twisting The Aces, a spelling trick, a sandwich bit. And I'm like a kid in a candy store. I KNOW these tricks. But he performs them SO well; with just a FEW changes here and there. What an enjoyable time! I look forward to next time. EVEN IF he does the same tricks! If Lam walks up to a table with cards in hand, it is going to be a good memorable experience. I *think* this posts fits this Topic.......somehow....... ?
TH
Occupy Your Dream |
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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts
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People used to pay me a LOT of money to come to their tables with just a deck of cards. To each his own,no?
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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R.E. Byrnes Inner circle 1206 Posts
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Well said, Vlad.
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cirrus Inner circle his minions made 1751 Posts
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Vlad, I love your way of having a discussion, very respectful.
Why I love those 2 effects and I don't like the t&r? First, because those two effects suit me (acaan and ootw), I can do them well, I have a good method for them, and I can put the spectator in the spotlight, that's enough motivation for me. I love to watch t&r don't get me wrong, I just can't perform it at this moment, because I haven't found a method that suits me and my character. Those 2 effects sprung to mind when I was writing the post, there are more that look like magic. I have written a post in food for thought (although it is more a guessing game) that what makes magic even more magic: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=475622&forum=27&0, magicians love to solve puzzles, solve this one). Hope you like it. |
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kentfgunn Inner circle Merritt Island FL 1639 Posts
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Tricks - Effects
If your audience doesn't give two shakes of a rat's tail about your supercilious linguistic choices, neither should you. If you stupidly correct a spectator with, "oh I do effects not tricks", you're just being a conceited jerk. I believe if your manner and skills are up to speed, your audience will get to see magic. If you choose cards as weapons, do good stuff. If you don't like cards as a medium, use other stuff. Vlad, The way to get Sam the Bellhop to work for you is by discarding the story Bill Malone uses. It works great for him. Write your own story. Quit doing covers of other people's work, musically and magically, and you'll find out more than you ever knew about your own performance. If you can't write music that inspires or come up with card TRICKS that amaze perhaps covering the work of others is what you should be doing. I can't answer that one for anyone else. I know by coming up with my own stuff, I got better. I'd rather do one of my own tricks than the work of others because part of my way is changing and refining what I read. I'm not arrogant to think I improve the tricks I do, but I do know I improve them for me. I don't know how to warn against this changing of well-written stuff strongly enough, I know someone who does know how though. Harry Lorayne gives some great advice in his book, Close-up Card Magic (yeah, yeah that's volume one of some compendium now). Please—learn the effects and routines exactly as I teach them. After you've mastered them completely, you may want to change something here or there. But even then, be careful! That's only the first step though. Learn the material of others, learn to perform it as written, then and only then should you start to tinker. Your first few attempts will yield mixed results. You may tinker with a trick for years and years. That's okay. You only need about six tricks . . . learn good ones and learn to make them better. It's far better than correcting people's word usage and showing yourself as an arrogant jerk. I know about being an arrogant jerk, btw. KG |
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puggo Inner circle 2022 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-07-29 13:39, kentfgunn wrote: A definite +1 from me on this one. |
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts
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"Harry Lorayne gives some great advice in his book, Close-up Card Magic (yeah, yeah that's volume one of some compendium now). I agree with that whole-heartedly. The worst magic comes from people trying to be original before they have learned their craft. How can you create a great routine if you have never performed one? How do you know what a good routine feels like, and what makes it work, if you haven't ever performed a great routine in front of a real audience? I see people talking on these boards all the time about this routine, and that routine and how they like one better than another. It quickly becomes apparent they have no idea why one routine is better than another, and in fact are not talking about the routine or the presentation, but about the entertainment ability of the performer doing the routine. |
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MuscleMagic Special user 794 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-07-29 10:49, Vlad_77 wrote: watch the audiances face even when pros start with the complex card tricks, they look annoyed and sometimes even forget what card they even thought of, youtube is full of those videos AGAIN I'm talking pros putting people to sleep with the complex math card tricks that involve 100 steps before the final what worked 10 years ago on people doesn't work now, times change people change what people find magical changed. The attention span has decreased in the past few years big time, TV commercials are now going to 15 seconds because of that, entire TV shows are being thrown out of the window because they are not fast paced, to think a card trick that just seems endless and takes forever is something that will still work is rediculious, there is a reason why the most popular card trick videos on youtube are short and don't have many steps. Stand up comics even the legeds all of a sudden find themselves out of touch with audiances, if you are a stand up comic and don't charge the topic ever 30 seconds you are out of business. So people, focus on quick good solid tricks, you will keep everyone happy, obviously if your audiance is 45+ feel free to take your time. |
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts
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Effects/Tricks don't bore people. Magicians do.
Magicians make the choice of which effects to do and how to do them. Therefore whether the audience is bored or entralled falls on the shoulder of the performer in front of them. Thinking that an effect/trick is what bores or entertains an audience leads many magicians to search for "better" material after they flop in front of an audience. It's much easier to say "that effect sucked" than it is to say "what the hell did I do wrong?" There are tricks/effects that suck, but even when a performer falls flat with those, HE is the one that chose that effect, so HE is the one responsible for the reaction of the audience. The discernment that comes with being able to know when an effect "just isn't right" comes with hard study, observation of the best performers and careful thought. But again, developing that discernment is the responsibility of the performer. I really believe that audience reaction always boils down to the responsibility of the individual perfomer. Can't see any way around that. SEY |
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MagicofDesperado Elite user 487 Posts
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I second what Steven said.
I see people perform, say for example, ambitious card. A trick done by most magicians, often hackneyed. Then you see someone like Dai Vernon or Tommy Wonder do the very same trick. Miracle. Magical. Entertaining. While I do believe that choice of material toward suiting your personality is also important, it's often the magician and not the material. Dave |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9988 Posts
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Steven's comment can easily seque into an expansion of my original thought. I am most pleased at the "quality" of the many responses here so far, especially since the title could be interpreted several ways:
that I personally do not do card tricks (or card magic) a contast between "tricks" and "effects" a contrast between "card magic" and other types of magic effects. In nearly six decades of performing I have addressed these issues many times knowing that the accountability is mine alone. I certainly would never say to another, "Don't do card magic," as a directive, but might as a prediction or caution. If I were putting together a half hour show for next month I would not include a single card effect. That is a personal choice based on a hundred reason -- some of which are difficult to explain. I can try if there is interest here -- if my experiences might help others make thier own choices. If not, that is fine too. I must admit that I feel a brush of sadness when I find a magician focusing almost exclusively on card magic (or C&B or Mentalism. etc) in the same way as when a person says, "I only eat fast food," or "I only listen to jazz," or "I meet all of my friends in bars." The study of magic and its performance is a unique way of interacting with life -- but only one of the many ways. If magic in any form is the only way that you interact with others I would also mumble, "Don't do magic tricks!" Some famous magician quiped, "In order to become a good magician we have to overcome the reasons we became involved with magic in the first place." Look to your own magical growth. Is that deck of cards a step on which to stand in order to get a better view, or a prison of 52 bars?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-07-29 13:39, kentfgunn wrote: Hi Kent, Great post. I should have been more clear: I mentioned Sam the Bellhop as an example of a storytelling effect with a pack of cards. I did not use Malone's story save when I was first learning the effect. But reconsidering I have another reason why I do not fit the effect and that is I do not feel a sense of magic eith it. Yes it is a demonstration of incredible card control/finesse/whatever label fits. And I agree concerning cover music, and I write my own music, but sometimes my friend, being in a cover band helps to pay the bills. Cést la guerre. But even in THAT situation I try to put a new spin on songs. I learned this from The Beatles who played, pushed, experimented, and redefined the genre such that they built upon earlier influences and redefined the genre. Lindsey Buckingham stated that the idea behind Tusk - Fleetwood Mac's final album until The Dance which was released years later - was to begin to explore sonic and compositional territory that The Beatles pioneered and few musicians have even begun to explore. Having been formally trained in live theater, I never look at a script, effect, or song, and just parrot what I have seen or heard. The artist is a creator and an interpreter. I will not borrow lines, I do not try to sound like Sir Paul. In fact the ONLY time I stick precisely to a musical composition is as a Cantor in the Eastern Orthodox Church. One does not interpret the chants because they are prayers and there is a strict system of tones in Byzantine chant that must befollowed and proscribed by the bneeds of a specific service in the Church year. But that is not the same as wholesale copying a song or an effect. I do think Kent that you and I are actually on the same page. You stated your position more eloquently and more clearly. I have seen magicians perform a set an morph from one magician to the next based upon the effects the magician is doing from the creators. So I see the magician present as David Wiliamson, Bill Malone, Jay Sankey, Harry Lorayne, and Darwin Ortiz. THAT is recycling but not what I woukld call green/real recycling - i.e, to make something new. Is it necessarily a bad thing to perform for instance Walt Maddison's The Sting but with my own spin and completely original presentation? I would argue no because I am not parroting Maddison's presentation. Methodologically if I feel that the effect is well structured, I will employ the METHOD. Why shouldn't I? But even method is certainly open to experimentation. If I feel that I can for instance substitute an Ascanio for an Elmsely because it feels more natural to me in terms of flow, etc., I will employ it. I also believe that such experimentation encourages me to be creative in creating my own effects just as analyzing Beatles, Pink Floyd, John Coltrane pieces have taught me to stretch and take chances. These musicians have taught me MUCH more than any formal music instructor I have ever had. To conclude then, my main argument I was trying to make was that magic is a performing art. The next statement will seem just a lot a of pontificating puffery and may offend those who have read my words and whose eyes are not yet bleeding: too many magicians ignore the performance aspect of an effect. I have seen magicians perform who execute flawless passes, Faros, seconds/centers/bottoms but the presentation - the performance ranks below the experience of getting a root canal. I am talking about the move monkeys. When I watch magic, I watch as a non-magician. Like a non-magician I want to be entertained and I want and LOVE to be blown away by the magic of the effect and in my uneducated estimation, that magic comes through in painstaking detail to presentation. I will qualify the move monkey statement in that while these people may lack the skills to effective entertain/perform, nonetheless they are discoverers of excellent methodological approaches. But let me please end by relating one more anecdote? I knew a magician from PA who had mastered Paul Gertner's "Unshuffled." This is a beautiful effect and I remember the very first time I saw Paul perform it and to this very day I remember not only the profound sense of WTF?! I ALSO remember Paul's wonderful presentation. Now, the magician in question paid SO much attention to his skill in nailing all the faros - and to his credit his faros were exquisite. But his presentation made me feel as though the dude was lobotomized. He was a technician but he was no performer. I think I had better stop here. This post is becoming a poorly written dissertation and my words fail to convey a message that I desperately want to argue. Again, others are more qualified to discuss what I am prattling on about. Namaste, Vlad PS: The preceding applies to ALL magic, not just card effects. |
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pepka Inner circle Uh, I'm the one on the right. 5041 Posts
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To laymen, it's still a trick. Someone will walk away from a 1.5 hour performance by Ricky Jay consisting of mostly of card magic and will still tell their friends about the wonderful card tricks they saw last night. I for one have NO problem calling them card tricks. I am comfortable enough with who I am as a performer and VERY frequently perform using nothing but cards. You know what, they love and I get rebooked and paid quite well so don't tell me card tricks are boring.
Now COINS on the other hand...I don't care if you're David Roth, I can literally watch about 5 minutes of coin magic. |
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Russell Davidson Inner circle Hampshire, England 1108 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-07-28 12:01, funsway wrote: Surely entertainment is the key factor with any effect whether it uses cards or not? But I have to disagree that cards can't be magical. There must be hundreds of card effects that fit that bill - ACR's, Colour Changing deck etc. |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9988 Posts
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Performers using cards can be magical -- cards can never be magical, and people can be magical with no tools at all.
The question sis, when is it appropriate to pretend at magic, and when is a "card trick" the best way to do that? And, for my money, if you are going to use cards as the tool of choice, then do something that might make you appear magical rathe than the cards -- or even better, awakens the magic within the spectator. I have absolutely no problem with card magic -- it is the WHEN that gives me pause.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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MagicofDesperado Elite user 487 Posts
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I'd like to hear you flesh out your thoughts Funsway as this is an interesting thread and I enjoy different views, even if they turn out to be counter to my own.
Dave |
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-07-30 08:11, funsway wrote: Hi Funsway, I would offer then that really cards are not the problem and your statement seems to bear that out. In other words, cards in themselves can't be magic anymore than they can play a Chopin etude. But the same can be said for ANY prop, no? You and I have had wonderful discussions in the past and your poetry is superb; I respect you. That being said, I am still unclear based upon the quote I included here why cards specifically seem to have drawn out your distaste. Namaste, Vlad PS: Pepka's comment about coin magic is interesting and obviously germane to the discussion. Pepka, if you read this, I am curious why coins have the "card" effect on you
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cirrus Inner circle his minions made 1751 Posts
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Magic, isn't accomplished by the effects, but by the performer, mostly by it's character.
A character defines what a person can do and can't do, and how he can do it. It means that you can't do everything, that some effects, how strong they might seem, just aren't your characters cup of tea, but the effects that suit him, look more then just tricks. They are consistent. They don't look like a haphazard of stunts. |
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pepka Inner circle Uh, I'm the one on the right. 5041 Posts
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How can you say cards are never magical? They're no less magical than half dollars, sponge balls, metal cups, or anything else we use.
As far as me having the card attitude for coins? I think it's just because I look at a deck and you can do anything with it. Coins? Once you can produce do a good coins across, change copper to silver and back, and do a good vanish, that's about it. I know someone will list more tricks, but it seems to me there are just a few plots in coin magic. |
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Posted: Jul 29, 2012 02:49 pm 
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