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glodmagic Special user USA 501 Posts |
Chris:
Of concern to performers and pertinent to this forum is the groups opposition to ANY use of an animal in entertainment. The statement about the elimination of milk in schools is also verified factual and was a highlighted on their home page a couple of months ago. I stand corrected and misread the article on their website regarding Costumed characters. It is they who dress up as the animals outside of the performances (Nutcracker)in a guise to solicit the cause in stealth. Thank you for bringing that to our attention.
Remember ANY of your posts here can be Googled by your customers and Clients. Just entering your name in Google can bring up your negative comments that stay for years!
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Darkwing Inner circle Nashville Tn 1850 Posts |
I have never in my life ever seen people that really need a life like the people in PETA.
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christopher carter Special user 660 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-12-22 01:34, Darkwing wrote: Oh, heck. I've seen lots of people who need lives as much or more than the people in PETA. On the animal rights front there's a group called ELF that makes PETA look like a group of ravaging carnivores. There's an awful lot to disagree with in their stated positions. In my opinion nearly all of them are objectionable. I'm just saying that there's no point in basing one's arguments against them on straw men or ad hominem attacks, because all that accomplishes is making their extreme views look more credible. Getting back to the issue that started the thread, the Sigfried and Roy show was wrong in offering those free tickets. I certainly don't think that doing so constituted a bribe. A business should not be offering free things to the organization that regulates it. Even if the gifts are innocent and well-meaning, it creates the appearance of trying to curry favor--a fact which was testified to by the inability of the regulatory agency to accept those free tickets. This principle can be found in any basic ethics textbook under the heading "Appearance if Impropriety." I think we all agree that the Sigfried and Roy show is one of the good guys in the animal entertainment field. Groups like PETA do a lot of good when they expose the bad guys. Those who would argue that they have done nothing for animals are simply wrong, in my opinion. There are cases of genuine animal abuse that they have uncovered. The danger of PETA, as has already been mentioned, is that they are philosophically opposed to any use of animals whatsoever. This means they're coming after the good guys as well as the bad. The only way to effectively combat this extremism is to adhere to the strictest ethical conduct possible and avoid even the appearance of impropriety. In this case, the Sigfried and Roy show slipped. It doesn't make PETA right, but it's more likely to make them LOOK right to people who have yet to form an opinion, which is a very undesirable consequence. --Chris |
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martini Special user delta, pennsylvania 548 Posts |
Greetings or should I say Arrghhh! When you mention PETA, I cringe at how outright idiotic these people are. 12 years ago a group of PETA morons decided to protest outside my factory carrying signs that we build magic props that kill and injure animals.
When we called the police to have them removed, we were told that they had a right to protest. After 2 days our local sheriff came up with the right idea, he stopped in for his daily coffee break and said loudly that he was going fishing, so if we felt threatened and shot anyone tresspassing on our property in fear for our lives, that he would be unavailable for the rest of the day. You never saw a group clear out so fast. We still were a subject for these morons for months, posters being left over our small town, and even flyers being placed on peoples windshields. This nonsense did not stop until we demanded to see their financial records as a non-profit status. When they refused, we called the IRS and asked why we could not see these public records. So it boils down to a simple rule, the people at PETA do really fear one ANIMAL....the IRS. If any of you have been on the recieving end of these PETA wackos, I feel for you, I know the abusiveness and spiteful things they do. Just remember that they do fear three little letters IRS. All the Best Marty |
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christopher carter Special user 660 Posts |
Martini,
I do feel for you. Like I said, it's much better to criticize them for the wrongs they actually do commit. It may interest you to know that the reason they fear the IRS is that their tax exempt status has long been on thin ice due to the fact that they make periodic contributions to ELF. Although these contributions are purportedly for very benign causes, ELF is considered by most folks to be an umbrella group for eco-terrorism. Whatever your experiences with PETA, ELF is way more extreme. Again, however, in spite of their extremism, PETA has sponsored some effective anti-cruelty campains, and has exposed and stopped quite a few genuine cases of abuse. To acknowlege this does not imply support of their core philosophy or of their extremist tactics. The most important question is how does one combat their form of extremism. Your innovative law enforcement solution gave me quite a laugh, but in the larger scheme it's probably counter-productive. I believe the best way is to not give them anything that might fuel their fire. They're able to promote their extreme agenda precisely because they piggy-back it on top of legitimate animal welfare causes like spaying-neutering programs, opposition to gratuitous animal testing and the like. The net effect (I think intentional) is to make it seem like those who oppose their extremism also oppose those aspects of their agenda that are right and reasonable. That's why I'm dwelling on this. Whenever we misrepresent positions or engage in fallacious logic, we are playing directly into their hands. I've written more than enough on this already, so I'll stop now. Do not construe anything I've written as a defense of PETA's terroristic tactics or their core agenda. It's more a warning. They've set a trap. Don't fall into it. --Chris |
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cfrye Special user Portland, Oregon, USA 940 Posts |
As for whether someone could bribe a government official with a couple of lousy show tickets (not that that's what happened), consider the plight of someone from the Department of Agriculture assigned to Nevada. A desert. American Siberia.
Further consider that the pecking order in the federal government is all about who you know, who you can call, and what other sorts of access you have. Politicians and bureaucrats love to have stars attend their parties, but getting an invitation to someone else's cool party runs a close second. |
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Scott Cram Inner circle 2678 Posts |
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On 2003-12-22 10:40, cfrye wrote: This "American Siberia," as you call it, contains Las Vegas, the fastest growing city in the U.S.. Just this past summer, the population of the city of Las Vegas surpassed the population of the entire state of New Mexico. |
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cfrye Special user Portland, Oregon, USA 940 Posts |
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On 2003-12-22 10:55, Scott Cram wrote: Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking Las Vegas. I get down there three or four times a year and stay in the far reaches of town (Boulder Station, Santa Fe Station, or Green Valley Ranch) so I can drive around the area. I actually own a Thomas Guide for Clark County. But, from a government perspective, especially for any agency not part of the Justice or Commerce departments, being assigned to New Mexico or Nevada is equivalent to being assigned to Siberia. It's a long way from DC, and there ain't a whole lot of agriculture there. |
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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3222 Posts |
Quote:
You're right Chris, that's a valid criticism. I got carried away trying to fit animal idioms into my prose. Thanks for correcting me! By the way, the initial sentence in my previous post was my main point, i.e.: Quote:
I can imagine that if they weren’t allowed into the show for free, that PETA would complain. Imagine if the inspectors asked to see how the animals were treated during the show, and were told they couldn’t see unless they bought tickets. Imagine what some citizens would say if they were told that government employees were purchasing tickets to a show with taxpayer money. I think the points above override any conflict of interest. However, I am not a lawyer. For all I know, they broke the law. I’m going to go out on a limb and make a prediction. I predict that these inspectors will not be prosecuted, or even lose their jobs because of this.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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christopher carter Special user 660 Posts |
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I’m going to go out on a limb and make a prediction. I predict that these inspectors will not be prosecuted, or even lose their jobs because of this. I don't think they will be either. Nor should they be. Since they were made to pay for the tickets, everything from their perspective is on the up and up. --Chris |
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martini Special user delta, pennsylvania 548 Posts |
Greetings Chris;
Thank you for the explanation as to why PETA fears the IRS. I had no knowledge of ELF or of PETA's donations to it. I am sure that at one time, PETA did good, unfortunately today it seems as if they just want to torture people. We would have gladly shown anyone from their organization the animal load chambers on our products, but no one ever asked, they just started protesting and then a harrassing agenda to belittle our business. I will heed your advice about not falling into their trap, very sound and good advice. All the Best Marty |
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Darkwing Inner circle Nashville Tn 1850 Posts |
I stand by my orginal statment.
I feel that animals should be treated with care. Your mother taught you that. The PETA and ELF people have a very warped view of the priorties between human life and animal life. Remember animal lab research saved millions of lives during WWII and continues to save lives today. Their fanatical views are dangerous and unrealistic. Their constant whining and sniffling gets on my last nerve. Shut up and eat your vegetables. |
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christopher carter Special user 660 Posts |
Darkwing,
The amazing thing here is that not a single post on this thread disagrees with you. My only quibble was that your initial statement identified PETA as being the most extreme, and they're not even close. Other than that, you hit the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned. Here's a problem, though. Sometimes its the extremists who call our attention to genuine issues. You bring up animal testing. I agree with you absolutely in principle that animal testing has saved millions of lives. However, not all animal testing is necessary. Some is gratuitous, and some is handled in such a way as to be cruel and abusive. In recent years there has been a lot of needed reform in the area of animal research, and from what I can tell it's mostly been a result of carping from PETA. Everything that Darkwing says about PETA's skewed philosphy is absolutely correct. What you're missing is the degree to which they have overwhelmed traditional anti-cruelty organizations. Unless people who care about animals make themselves aware of the good that PETA really has accomplished, and then find other, more reasonable organizations to accomplish those same goals (ASPCA, for example), then PETA will continue to grow and to propogate their nonsense. --Chris |
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Lee Darrow V.I.P. Chicago, IL USA 3588 Posts |
I STILL want to see them pull their nonsense on a bunch of leather-clad bikers!
For all the good they have done, their growing fanatacism is actually starting to damage their credibility and is beginning to make them a laughingstock. Well, the road to perdition in paved with good intentions, as they say! Happy holidays anyway! Lee Darrow, C.Ht. http://www.leedarrow.com
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!" |
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christopher carter Special user 660 Posts |
Lee,
Your point is exactly what I've been saying over and over. Only I would drop the prase "is starting." Everybody who has seemed to think I have been acting as an apologist for them has completely missed my point. What they are doing is damaging legitimate animal welfare causes. They are a very dangerous organization. Far too dangerous to be casually dismissive of. I won't go on about this any more. I apologize for taking up so much attention as is. --Chris |
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Lee Darrow V.I.P. Chicago, IL USA 3588 Posts |
Chris,
No apologies necessary. You are, IMHO, right on the money. Only that my comments weren't intended to be dismissive, but that's MY fault, not yours. PETA really needs to get its act together and do what they started out to do instead of wallowing in the pity party and borderline terrorist-like attitudes that they, IMHO, seem to have. Happy Holidays, my friend! Lee Darrow, C.Ht. http://www.leedarrow.com
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!" |
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nums Veteran user I have a life, or I would have more than 366 Posts |
When I had a real job my duties included fixing kitchen equipment on-site. I went to a resturaunt (no names here but its initials are TGIF) and noticed all the stuffed animal heads were gone, seems someone complained that looking at them while eating a steak was disturbing to them...go figure.
Jeff |
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Ron Reid Inner circle Phoenix, Arizona 2732 Posts |
Hello:
Just wandered through and saw this thread; I don't have the time or desire to enter into much of debate, but I will mention just a few facts/opinions: I do think some of PETA's tactics and energies are misguided (such as protesting against Roy). I have found most of their crusades nobel and worthwhile. The most extreme campaigns are the ones most people hear about - what you don't hear about are times when PETA helps shut down illegal cockfighting, rescues dogs and cats from flooded areas when no one else will, stops madmen from torturing animals for "pleasure", etc. These are the many good things that PETA continues to do. In response to animal testing being a necessary evil, I once thought the same thing until I checked into it. For those interested, check out the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine website, or read Diet for a New American by John Robbins. I've written more than I really wanted; I'm not trying to change anyone's stance, for I know how impossible that is most of the time. But every once in while there is someone willing to check out the facts in a sincere desire to know the truth. So, if that's you, check out PETA's website, or the sources I mentioned above. Ron |
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Steve Pellegrino Loyal user 224 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-12-10 01:09, Scott Cram wrote: I don't know how I missed this thread, but let me give you a TRUE INSIDER'S view. I will start out by saying that I used to work for Kirby VanBurch (I agree 100% with Max Maven!). Back in the late 80's in Las Vegas I was his illusion manager and for a year I was his animal handler. Back then Kirby took incredible care of his animals. I wouldn't have worked for him if he hadn't. Since he has been in Branson and now divorced from his first wife, I understand that the animal care has gone downhill. His first wife did a great job of overseeing the animal care. From "insider" accounts, this just isn't the case anymore and what I have heard about the USDA's claim against Kirby did not surprise me. Regarding USDA - The USDA does not need permission from anyone to inspect show animals. They do not set appointments and can walk backstage at any show with animals at anytime - and they do. They can also, without warning inspect the compound where the animals are kept - at anytime. The USDA has the power to remove animals from a show if they feel there is any abuse or neglect. Regarding the care S&R give to their cats - it's always been top notch. I know people that worked for them and they wish they had been treated as well as their cats are treated. Typically, why animals are not treated as well as they should is a matter of money. It's expensive taking care of exotic cats. You have to have handlers, food, proper housing and transportation. The vet bills are expensive! Money was never an issue with S&R. They would never risk the bad publicity by abusing their animals. Well - my that's my insider's two cents worth! I wouldn't have traded the year I spent working with exotic cats for anything in the world. Being up-close and personal, without a cage separating you and the cat - what an experience! |
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Joshua Lozoff Inner circle Chapel Hill, NC 1332 Posts |
I eat meat (that I catch or raise myself), I believe in keeping farm animals for human use, and I am a proud card-carrying member of PETA. Obviously I do not agree with all of their perspectives, and clearly they would not agree with all of mine.
But I have a similar perspective as Ron. I have seen the tremendous work that they have done that does not get as much attention as the stupid things they sometimes do. Remember that you are getting information from the mainstream media, which has a vested interest in making groups like PETA out to be kooks. It gets the ratings to cover a story about folks dressing up in animal outfits and splattering blood on people, while the results of a three-year lawsuit against an inhumane cosmetics laboratory pouring lye into rabbits' eyes does not get the ratings. Unfortunately, it takes a group as big and extreme as PETA to take on some of the truly sleazy and cruel companies out there. Have any of you seen the photos of the animals in some of the traveling circus-type shows that PETA has helped shut down? It would be very worthwhile to turn our anger and outrage in the direction of the folks that give animal workers a bad name. It's truly horrendous stuff. I will continue to disagree with PETA about some of their positions and tactics, and I will continue to support their work as well. |
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