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eatonmagic Special user Orlando, FL 737 Posts |
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On 2012-10-12 12:01, Michael_MacDonald wrote: I'm sorry bro...I'm sure you're probably good but this post is filled with so much arrogance it kills me to read it! This inflation of ego is all too familiar in our craft and it needs to stop somewhere. Really....you go into a new area and see who is the highest paid performer? And how do you accomplish this? Do you call around and ask each performer? And also, what qualifies you to get a higher booking than someone who deserves it? By stating you command more money simply based on what the top guy is getting is not justifying the money spent. I have a hard time believing that for instance, you could move to Orlando and get paid more than Giovanni or move to Pittsburgh and make twice what Paul Gertner makes. If you want to create value then create value. Back it up with logistics and prove to the client you're worth it. I get what you're saying but discrediting a fellow magicians value just because the client "balks" at your price is plain wrong and unethical. How can you honestly refer to probably the better magician in your area as "cheaper" in efforts to make yourself look better? I guarantee you if you came into my town and tried this, you would quickly find a lot of clients laughing at you and a terrific community of AMAZING magicians not wanting anything to do with you. At least I know that when I book a show my value is justified due to my credentials and accolades. Not because I just find out what the areas top guy is making and then I double it. And another thing, there's something to be said about constantly gigging. Just because your goal is to work less and make more that doesn't make you a pro. In fact, it says a lot about your work ethic and integrity. Answer me this...how much charity do you give back to your community? |
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Michael_MacDonald 1964 - 2016 Washington 2034 Posts |
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On 2012-10-15 02:10, eatonmagic wrote: well bro first off I have been performing as a working pro since 1988 magic and mentalism being my only income. I make enough to feed my family and keep a roof over my head and still have some toys. most of my bookings in this area are word of my and repeats that have me working regular shows. yes I do call all the magicians in the area. I research my market. no I do not tell them that the guy that I offer to refer them to sucks or is a cheap magician. I do tell them I can refer them to someone that will fit their price range as I my self can not work for that fee. 99% of the time I get the booking the other times I do refer the show and the other guy gets a free gig from me. I position my self higher and DO bring to the table great value to the customers or I would NOT get the repeat bookings every year and the referals to the friends and families of those clients. I ask my price I get it. they are happy.decades of performance experience under my belt. that's what justifys my price. how much charity do I give back to the community? 4 shows per year for the foundation for he retarded, this is used by them as a fund raiser event that helps to pay for their programs for the mentally challenged. q1 day a month I travel to local elder care homes and perform for the residence as most of them do not get visits on a regular basis. 3 shows this year so far for the family center here local. this group serves those families that have suffered from domestic violence. other charity events are taken on a choice by choice basis made by me. my initial post was made here giving my view that being under cut does not hurt me it actually positions me higher with a higher perceived value to the customer. if you take this as arrogance that is up to you my friend. if you take me as ego driven again that is up to you. I am not hurt by your remarks as you do not personally know me. I get paid for what I do and all the years I put in doing it. |
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Michael_MacDonald 1964 - 2016 Washington 2034 Posts |
The point is that I am not hurt by undercutting as I positioned my self in a different price range and as a specialist in the field I am presenting to the client. if you set your price to low then the person booking you sees walmart prices and knows he can get you to lower your price more if he dickers with you.
I do not want that reputation as it will hurt me later when I try to get the higher price. word of mouth can make you or break you. if the word is your cheap priced then the value set on you and your performance by the perspective client is just that...cheap....this is ok for the new guy on the block as he needs the experience and the only way to get that is to step out and do all he can in live settings. that's good for his growth. people seeing his show will know that he is new and in-experienced just as people seeing my show will know that a lot of work went into my presentations and will gladly pay me the higher price. for marketing its not the tricks you do its what you bring to the table for the client that sets you above or below the competitor. if all you do is talk about you in your marketing then it will sound like nothing more then what it is but if you offer solutions, and benefits that they can relate to you will get the booking for a higher fee. let them know whats in it for them besides just the tricks. thousands can do trick a lot less are actual entertainers. |
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General_Magician Special user United States 707 Posts |
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On 2012-10-15 03:55, Michael_MacDonald wrote: Please don't take this personally as I am sure you are a good person, but I would agree with eatonmagic that charging double than what the top magician in the local area charges is probably not a good strategy. Again, I think it's smarter to first determine what price ranges the local market is willing to pay and then choose a position within that local market and within those price ranges that the local market is willing to pay. For example, if the position you choose is providing very high quality magic (which means you have done some serious practice time, you invest a lot of money into your magic and have years of experience and are awesome at the craft) then you could choose to charge the higher price range of what that local market is willing to pay. If the local market is not willing to pay an upper price range that you think is worth your time and the quality of magic, entertainment and services you provide, then it's probably best to choose a different local market which has the money to afford your prices AND the willingness to pay those prices (just because they have the money to pay those prices doesn't mean they are willing to pay those prices). But I like to use surveys to get a better picture of the local market I am operating in and what prices I can charge in that local market as well as when they are most likely to hire a magician so I can more effectively market. Not to mention, you throw in a question that asks if they would go to a restaurant more often if they knew it had magical entertainment. If you get a good percentage who say yes you can use that as a sales pitch to a restaurant (but I keep the statistics on the responses of the sample to show the restaurant as well, but never indulge any kind of private information to the restaurant of those who took the survey as that is a violation of an individual's right to privacy and against the law).
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Your value is not based on what others charge.
There I said it again.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Michael_MacDonald 1964 - 2016 Washington 2034 Posts |
Wow....this thread started with someone saying that newbies are killing his market. I make a living doing nothing but magic. there are a lot of magicians that do the under cut thing trying to fill the calender.
I personally do not do that. I choose to BE the top magician in the area. I choose to set the bar. if people balk at my rates I'm more then happy to send a referral to other magicians. you guys are telling me I'm wrong but the fact remains I'm DOING IT. I get what I ask. I get it often. you say you agree with eatonmagic, all I saw from him was personal attacks "I'm sorry bro...I'm sure you're probably good but this post is filled with so much arrogance it kills me to read it! This inflation of ego is all too familiar in our craft and it needs to stop somewhere." the ego has nothing to do with it. people seek me out the rehire me. they refer me. so to them I have justified my price. just because a magician does not think I'm justified in how I personally choose to market my self and run my business I'm supposed to drop everything I do because he thinks I'm ego driven? to be honest I do not make a habit of performing for magicians. I perform for the people that need and want what I offer if they are willing to pay it then who are you to tell me I'm wrong? your telling me I can only charge what the market will bare in a given area. I'm telling you that it will bare what I'm charging and has done so for many years. do I think some really small one horse town can handle me...no but I'm not in a one horse town when I'm booked. pet rocks.......a rock out of someones back yard that he painted and sold thousands of....justification? who cares he did it and got paid. if I'm getting paid more for working less then why is this a huge issue? I'm doing it. I'm getting paid and supporting a family of 5 doing it as a full time performer. I do not have another job. I have been a working pro since the 80s. my research is pick a market specialize in it. find out what the customer needs or wants from my performance then give it to them I look at others in that market niche and position my price above them creating a perceived value. the customer wants to know whats in it for him. what you offer that another does not that makes you asset. most local magicians post awards and fill their copy with "I" "MY" mine is filled with "you" "YOUR" I give them benefits, solutions. if your doing corporate magic such as trade shows they do not care about your awards they want to know what you can do for the ROI. they want you to draw the client to them so they can present their offerings. they want to step above their competitors at that trade show. so you know what they want now work out a way to give it to them. let them know you have the solution and they will pay for it. if your doing private parties its the same thing. what do you offer them that the next guy is not promoting on his site or his sales pitch? I may have a show equal to the guy that undercuts me but I word my copy and my pitch to get the most notice and stand out from him. am I a better magician? maybe, maybe not. but I am a better marketer then he is or he wouldn't position him self as desperate. desperation is not a good sales tool. not everyone can afford to drive that Mercedes or the BMW, but those that can and want to buy it. do buy it. those are my targets for marketing. |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On 2012-10-12 12:01, Michael_MacDonald wrote: I suspect that when considering a BMW there are (at least) ten times as many people who say, "That bimmer is a good car; it must be expensive," as there are who say, "That bimmer is expensive; it must be a good car." (And there are also probably ten times as many who utter the offensive "beemer" instead of the time-honored "bimmer", but that's another matter entirely.) I believe that your strategy puts the cart, as it were, before the horse. |
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Sir Richard Special user 650 Posts |
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1st off, I used the word "bear," not "bare," and was quoting David Guinn. If you don't agree with him then you might try writing him and saying so. I have tons of respect for the man, btw. And the man who invented the "Pet Rock?" He later regretted that. Sir Richard
"In the land of Murphy there is but ONE law!"
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On 2012-10-15 18:47, Sir Richard wrote: And you'd probably use "you're", not "your" as well. |
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Michael_MacDonald 1964 - 2016 Washington 2034 Posts |
Lol this is to much. if the new guy charges to little he gets flamed, if I charge to much I get flamed.....
lets look at this a moment. I go to a new area find that the local magicians are charging between 35 and 100 per hour. I take the highest...100 per hour and double it charging 200 per hour..your telling me I can not get that? lol I guess ill let you guys go back to complaining about how the newbies are killing your market and go back to doing my shows and getting paid what I want for my shows. forgive me for not conforming to how you think I should run my business. I wish you all nothing but success in what ever it is your doing. Michael |
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General_Magician Special user United States 707 Posts |
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On 2012-10-15 19:24, Michael_MacDonald wrote: Well, one thing I have learned is that their is always somebody who is better. Always somebody who knows more and is better. Did you stop and think that maybe the magician you are charging double their price might actually be better at the craft than you? If you are going to be charging more than the top guy in the area you are operating in then you better be the best in that area and I am here to tell you, I have seen ALOT of incredibly talented magicians out there, most of whom would blow me out of the water. I think it's just safer that if high quality magic and perhaps throwing in a few extras is the market position you want to take, then you need to invest serious time practicing your craft and also some serious money into your craft AND also know what price ranges your local market is willing to bear and take perhaps the close to the upper price range once you determine those price ranges. Because you can't get quality without investing serious time, practice and money into the craft and of course years of experience also helps too (which I am sure you have years of experience and are good at the craft) and at least in my personal experience you can't just charge some huge price out of the blue and expect to just land gigs based on that (and the people in that particular market might not be able to afford those prices or simply be unwilling to pay those prices for entertainment, every region or local market is different). Then you can justify charging more to clients, but you would need to know if there is a big enough market for higher prices in your area. But I agree with eatonmagic, charging double the top guy charges in the area is not really an effective strategy as there is always somebody who is better and who knows more and it's just arrogant to turn around and charge double his price when in reality his magic could be better than yours and he could be providing more value as well. But I would also try to offer more than just high quality magic. You can offer high quality magic and a few extras and be able to justify a higher price because you providing more value but that doesn't mean you have to charge double than what the top guy charges in order to do well for yourself as a professional.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown
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Michael_MacDonald 1964 - 2016 Washington 2034 Posts |
You see that is my problem with this whole thread, you guys are all worried about who charges more and who under cuts instead os just honing your art and building a solid marketing plan.
you say that I'm arrogant for charging more then the top paid magician in my local area. I ask how so? who gets to set the price for the area? the top guy? why? if I'm charging more then he is and he as you guys seem to think gets more shows then why does it matter to him how much I charge? is it his ego that is bruised because he is no longer the top paid in the local area? if that is the case then all he has to do is charge more..... I see people on here upset that some new guy with no experience under his belt is charging way less. by the logic your using on me they should be thanking him for making them the upper paid performers raising their prestige. better yet why not take the new guy under the wing and help him? teach him to market and help raise the bar for magicians in the area? you and the rude guy that does personal attacks on people he does not know are treating me like I'm a new guy. I am not a new guy lol. you say the top paid guy might be better.... by whos standards? magicians? clients? I do not perform for magicians. you may be right in that he may be able to do a perfect muscle pass or flashy card spins. the fact remains I perform for laymen who not only pay my asking fee but tip me well after its over. they call me back, refer me to their friends. if I was not adept at my craft then why would they do this? lets define what my craft is shall we? yes I do tricks but that is not the sum total of my craft. I entertain. I build relationships that last. I give them what they want, and need to make the event they hire me for a success. that really sounds like I know my craft and do it well. if you ask me to perform for magicians then nope you are right on as that would be a whole new skill set to learn, and as magicians will never pay my bills why should I learn it? it is arrogant to try and enforce a set standard for what I personally chose to sell my time for. I'm not in a union. there is not cap on what an artist can charge for his work. if the new guy is happy with 35 a show then let him have it. if the top guy is happy with what he gets per show then let him have it. if I am happy with what I charge for a show and people are willing to keep paying me then guess what? I'm charging it. I will get less shows by out pricing some of the lower end clients and that's fine with me as I prefer to perform less shows and make more money. this lets me spend more time with my family. my children get to see me more then if I'm performing all those shows I'm turning down. the reality is your guys should spend less time worrying about what others charge and focus on your business. set your price where you want it. the only person that can hurt my business is me. this is not an ego thing with me. this is a positioning stratagy I have used for many years in many areas. it works for me. I actually feel bad for the new guys because they do not have the experiance and have to suffer the crying of the so called pros because they are under cutting. the new guy can not charge the high fee as he is not skilled enough to fulfill his obligations for that fee. so help him. don't harass or flame him. if your a working pro then you will get bookings if you market it right. there is enough work for everyone go get it lol. and if your ever in my area look me up Ill buy you a drink and we can chat about magic, mentalism or the hot server getting our drinks for us. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
If I may remove some of the heat let me say this.
It is not about your value in the market , but rather about your value to the client. That particular client. I think I see what you were going for. I agree with the sentiment. Personally I never let what another charges impact my value. Seems like a recipe for disappointment. I would never conduct any sort of surey. I have a value and I know what that value is. It does not change based on what others charge or by the way on what one can afford. Just because a client has more money does not increase my value. When you go to Wal Mart do they charge you more based on your budget? No because it is about the value provided. Many magicians make this basic mistake.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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General_Magician Special user United States 707 Posts |
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I would never conduct any sort of surey. I have a value and I know what that value is. It does not change based on what others charge or by the way on what one can afford. Just because a client has more money does not increase my value. When you go to Wal Mart do they charge you more based on your budget? No because it is about the value provided. Many magicians make this basic mistake. Yeah, but if what you think your value is way more than what the market you are operating in can afford to pay, then you are not going to get any gigs. The goal is to get gigs and make more money while also providing value to the customer in the particular market you have chosen to operate in. I really don't think it's absolutely necessary to simply just cater to the rich and wealthy in order to do well as a magician. And just because you are dealing with a local market that is wealthy, doesn't necessarily mean they are going to be willing to pay what you think you are worth. Just pick a market, learn that market and adapt according to that market. Learn and know the terrain and adapt and overcome. If you are unwilling to take surveys then you are going to miss out on important insights and knowledge of the market you are operating in which you can use to your advantage. And every market is different which makes surveying an important tool to learning each new or different market so that you can adapt to that particular market accordingly.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Your value is what it is. If you don't posess enough self knowledge to know it then no amout of surveys will help.
What if you are trying to get into a market and the price is WAY higer value than you can provide? Do you charge the high amount because everyone else is? Of course you shouldn't. Again your value is based on you not on others. This is pretty basic. You need to be in markets that you can compete. This is actually a common thing magicians do and often to their own detriment. I know what you are getting at and if t works for you cool. But it can be a major stumbling block.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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General_Magician Special user United States 707 Posts |
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On 2012-10-16 11:06, Dannydoyle wrote: There is some truth in what you are saying, but if you think your value is really high AND you are only willing to take what you think you are truly worth then you probably should consider only those markets which can afford AND are willing to pay for that value. For example, I would love to own a porsche, but I certainly can't afford one and it's probably not smart for a porsche dealer to set up a porsche dealership in my neighborhood and expect to make money or to stay in business. Me personally, I will say I am not the best magician around but I do have a sense of self worth when it comes to my magic and I do not mind at times charging a little less than what I think I am truly worth if that is what keeps me working in the market I am operating in because I enjoy performing AND I also want to stay in business. In certain markets, you can price yourself out of business which doesn't serve your own best interests.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown
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Gary T. Veteran user 375 Posts |
Okay I'm gonna say right now I haven't read this entire thread, mainly because there's a lot of hot air being blown about everywhere, lots of long winded opinions that I'm sure are totally valid but all say the same basic thing "you charge you're price, if you're good and its reasonable you'll be hired, don't worry about the other dude." but now heres a thought, if theres some 15 year old eating up all the business in your area with cheap shows, he must be doing good enough that people are hiring him, so the solution? TALK TO THE 15 YEAR OLD, tell him to raise is prices, you're the one with the experience, if he's smart he'll listen to your advice! play him up! tell him you like what he's doing and that you think he could be making more. suddenly his price is up, yours can compete so you're booking more gigs, and if he's good at what he does he's making more money too, it's a win win, everybody goes home happy. but don't be rude to him, let him think that you think he should honestly be charging more.
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General_Magician Special user United States 707 Posts |
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On 2012-10-16 11:21, Gary T. wrote: If some 15 year old is making good money by charging cheap for shows and eating up the market it indicates his positioning in the market is good (which his positioning is low price) and you are having trouble booking gigs, then you are doing something wrong. However, to start booking more gigs, you don't have to simply lower your prices but start providing more value than what the 15 year old currently provides. You might have to spend more time practicing, spend more money on high quality magic, spend more time studying your craft, spend more time developing new and innovative ideas to bring more value to your target market. If you don't, then the 15 year old will just keep getting more shows over you. You have to invest in your business if you want to book gigs while competing with a cheap 15 year old magician, charge higher prices and still get those gigs. You have to offer more value and something different from the cheap 15 year old magician. This is why knowing your competition is important and taking a specific positioning your local market is important so that you can book more gigs while having to compete with a cheap 15 year old magician. It's clear to see that his positioning is good in that he is taking the low price position in the market and making good money while doing it. Now, you have to take a different position in the market and invest the necessary money, time and practice to be able to meet the expectations and value of that position.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown
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General_Magician Special user United States 707 Posts |
I mean, it's kind of comical to see some 15 year old kid magician clean the clocks out of some old crusty old hand veteran magicians in a particular market of the magic business. It goes to show that the inflated egos of some of the more experienced magicians ultimately leads to their own downfall. I think it's unethical to try to con some 15 year old kid into lowering his prices when he is doing well for himself at the prices he is currently charging.
If you want to continue to land more gigs, be a genuinely higher quality magician (if high quality is the market position you want to take in the market) and also offer something that your competition doesn't offer and do everything you can to genuinely increase your value and you'll start to book more gigs at a higher price than what the 15 year old is charging because you really are more valuable and are not just somebody who thinks he is more valuable because he has an over-inflated ego.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Oh goodie. Talk about hot air lol.b
Talk to the kid and tell him to raise his prices? You have the experience and yet this kid is cutting into the business and you think he will listen? The kid isn't the one with the problem. Lord this place gets stranger every day. The way you make yourself successfull is by being different, not by making everyone else the same.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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