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Martin Waring Loyal user York, England 255 Posts 
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Just received this from WMS and I'm absolutely thrilled with this effect. Quality of the chain is great. It should last a lifetime and I can see I'm going to have so much fun with this at tables. You do need a table or at least a surface to put the chain on. Highly recommended.
Available here: http://www.worldmagicshop.com/SearchResu......nd+loose |
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts
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I'm glad that Fast and Loose is gaining some attention. What surprised me was that it seemed neither Craig nor David seemed to be aware of this very old street con. Though Craig and David didn't mention it, you really should get School for Scoundrels' Notes of Fast and Loose. This spiral bound booklet is really a must read if you want to do this great con/effect.
Also, Marc DeSouza's routine is simply exemplaty and well worth the study. Mr. DeSouza's routine features other throws in addition to the on the table technique performed by David Penn - these throws are done in the air. If you have Lewis Ganson's The Art of Close Up Magic, look there to find a really cool bit of work on Fast and Loose by Fred Lowe. Nick Trost has a routine for this effect, in the pages of Apocalypse you will find even more cool work on the effect. Supreme Magic did a larger volume on Fast and Loose, and again, a mindboggling amount of coolness to be found there. Ganson's Teach In Series also has a section on Fast and Loose. I've been perfoming Fast and Loose for ten years and it is a GREAT crowd pleaser. Namaste, Vlad |
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mike donoghue Inner circle 1299 Posts
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Was doing this 37 years ago(at 16) after reading it in ART OF CLOSE UP MAGIC VOL.1
It was great then & still is now. Also got the chance to see Whit Haydn do this a few years ago at the South Tyneside Convention.He is the master of this routine. Mike Donoghue |
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r99h Loyal user Southampton, UK 257 Posts
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I too can't believe that neither Craig nor Dave had performed Fast & Loose before!
This chain costs over £30! And the accompanying DVD costs £28!! I appreciate that the DVD probably contains some good routines but even so, this all seems very expensive to me. You can go to your local hardware store for some good quality chain (I bought mine from B&Q here in the UK) and easily make it into a loop. It cost me less than £5. And I'm sure that if I ever need to replace it, I won't have to do so six times! Vlad mentioned above that there are very good resources for Fast & Loose routines, many of which contain other magic effects as well. And Paul Zenon's Street Magic has a good basic routine which I sometimes use. Dave pointed out that the chain comes with only limited instruction, and that YouTube is a good resource for instruction on the effect... (Strange, considering WMS sell the DVD!) Are the chain & DVD worth the expense, considering that Fast & Loose routines are already widely available and good quality chain does not cost a lot? In their review, Dave said that the chain is designed so as to make it almost impossible to study, but it still seems expensive to me... Rich |
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silverking Inner circle 4574 Posts
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Quote:
There's much more to the design of the School For Scoundrels chain that is first apparent. The SFS chain is designed a very specific way for a very specific reason. You are, of course, free to use whatever chain you'd like to use......but until you understand the design of the SFS chain, you're not fully understanding Fast and Loose at its most deceptive......and you're not going to understand why the chain from the hardware store is a poor choice if your goal is to deceive. Also, regardless of the price, the School for Scoundrels props, written material, and video documentation on F&L, 3 Card Monte, and the Shell Game represent the very best material available on each con available anywhere. |
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r99h Loyal user Southampton, UK 257 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-04-05 18:42, silverking wrote: Thanks for the reply, silverking. I've been performing a Fast & Loose routine as part of a 'History of Cons' section (including Prick the Garter, the 3-Card Monte, Eddie Fechter's 'Be Honest, What is it?', etc). Are you able to say what it is about the chain that makes it so special? Or what it allows you to do which you can't with an ordinary chain? Since this is an old con trick in which people centuries ago used normal chains, I'm intrigued. If this chain really adds something special and brings the effect into the 21st century, I might be interested in it. I can appreciate it if you can't answer my questions on an open forum, but I'm sure you can understand that forking out that amount of money on something which I don't fully understand at the moment is too much of a risk for me! Rich |
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silverking Inner circle 4574 Posts
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Yes, it's a double link/weave chain which is impossible for the eye to follow regardless of how hard the mark tries.
The layout is impossible to figure out, even if you get your head a few inches away from the chain. |
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rasp Inner circle 1122 Posts
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I have been performing Marc De Souza's 'The Chain Gang' for the last ten years.
Still available and only costs £23.00, which includes DVD and chain!!! Ian. |
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silverking Inner circle 4574 Posts
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http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......orum=190
School for Scoundrels carries the De Souza routine in their web store, and they consider it an excellent routine......this in addition to their own brilliant thinking and research on F&L as a con and as an entertainment. You owe it to yourself to get familiar with SFS as a resource if you're at all interested in these types of short cons. |
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r99h Loyal user Southampton, UK 257 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-04-05 20:47, silverking wrote: I'm really sorry, but I still don't get it. When performing Fast & Loose, the way the effect works, it doesn't matter whether the mark thinks they can work out the chain's layout. In fact I think it can be to the operator's advantage if the mark thinks they've got it figured out! I wish School for Scoundrels good luck with this. Fast & Loose deserves to gain more recognition in the magic field. But I'll stick to my simple, cheaper, homemade chain in the spirit of the conmen of yore.  As with all effects and props, it's horses for courses, and from what I've heard about it I don't see this product improving or enhancing the routines I currently perform.
Rich |
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Mark Powell Special user UK 504 Posts
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I remember Ricky Jay performing this on the Secret Cabaret. Loved the effect ever since.
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silverking Inner circle 4574 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-04-06 13:56, r99h wrote: As per my previous note, you'd have to read and understand all the thinking in the SFS printed and/or DVD material such that you'd truly understand the premise. If the mark understands the layout such that he can see you're laying it out more than one way, he's got you flat footed. He doesn't have to understand the implications of the layout directly, only that you're not doing the same thing each time you throw the chain. It's critical to both the original con, and its entertainment derivative that the mark is of the mindset that the chain is laid identically each and every time it's thrown. Anyway, whatever works for you is definitely the way to proceed! |
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Shrubsole Inner circle Kent, England 2455 Posts
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Have any of you used this as a mentalist effect? To me it screams prediction and influence not just a 'look at this interesting con'
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts
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On 2013-04-06 19:25, Shrubsole wrote: I used to use the 3 shell game for this years ago, to explain how I learned how to influence people, plant false memories and study how people act and react under any form of mental pressure... a friend recently told me it used to be called "pr1cking the garter"...
I've asked to be banned
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r99h Loyal user Southampton, UK 257 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-04-06 18:40, silverking wrote: Thank you, silverking - I understand that. I know there are different ways of throwing the chain. But when I throw the chain, it is thrown exactly the same way every time (unless of course I see a need to throw it differently - usually to confuse the mark still further  ). I demonstrate the concept of 'fast' and 'loose'; I invite the mark to try to choose a 'fast' side or try to choose a 'loose' side, ensuring they lose every time - unless I want them to win ; allow them to put a finger in each side and choose one when they feel the chain tugging ay their fingers; show them with a slow action where my finger lands inside the chain, inviting them to choose that loop - only for them to find it's now loose, etc. In fact, everything demonstrated in the WPR and more.
And each and every time, the chain is thrown and laid out in the same identical way. So as I said before, it doesn't matter whether the mark thinks they can work out the chain's layout - if they think it's that simple, I've got them! But as you said, "whatever works for you is definitely the way to proceed!" (I don't want to look cocky here! One day I'll buy the SFS DVD, as I'm sure I could learn from it.
All the best, Rich |
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r99h Loyal user Southampton, UK 257 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-04-06 19:39, IAIN wrote: As far as I understand it, 'Pricking the Garter' is a con which preceded 'Fast and Loose', and typically uses a rolled up belt - the idea being for the mark to try to guess which loop in the centre is going to catch on the belt when it's unrolled. Just as in 'Fast & Loose', the operator is in complete control of the outcome. Rich |
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silverking Inner circle 4574 Posts
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I suspect we approach F&L from two entirely different directions Rich, and there's certainly no right or wrong way to do it.
Prick the Garter, On the Barrelhead, The Strap, The Belt, The Old Army Game......lots of different names, with the basic con going back to the Middle Ages. The mechanics of the Strap are different than the chain, but the idea is roughly the same. The full history and all the details of the many various iterations of the con are researched and explained in the lengthy SFS DVD, and the associated 80 or so pages of written material. (BTW, I've got absolutely nothing to do with SFS other than I've purchased some of their products) |
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Shrubsole Inner circle Kent, England 2455 Posts
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I understand the 'con' demonstrations of this but if performed as a mentalist piece, it does well to explain that you are laying it differently to predict which one the spectator is going to pick and set it in such a way that they will pick the wrong one. (from their point of view)
As a mentalist piece the only demonstration would be at the start to show that you can lay is one way and that if the right loop is chosen, then it does catch. That is the one the spectator much pick again. It is then your job as the mentalist to influence and/or predict which they will go for and set it up so that they don't get it. Two very different performances of the same trick.
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
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ekins Special user Portland, Oregon 513 Posts
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There were some questions earlier about what makes the School for Scoundrels chain different and worth the extra expense. Their website has a page describing their chain and comparing it to some other common chains. You'll have to decided if that's worth the extra money.
http://www.chefanton.com/scoundrelsstore/fl_chains.htm -Brian |
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r99h Loyal user Southampton, UK 257 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-04-06 22:06, silverking wrote: I'm sure we do, silverking, and it's a great thing for both magicians and spectators alike that we can perform for them and they're likely to see something new each time, even if the effects are basically the same.
Quote:
On 2013-04-07 11:23, ekins wrote: Thank you, Brian. I had a look at the website and the photos of the chain compared to others. However, all the chains were very carefully laid out in such a way as to emphasise the points they made in the text above them. (The flat link chain I use never looks as bad as the one in their photo!) Also, the comparison photos were all in a square configuration, rather than the more visually confusing 'bowtie' configuration. For those reasons I think that their marketing is misleading. When looking at the performance using the SFS chain in the WPR, the layout of the chain is much more obvious than it is in the SFS photos. There is a big difference between seeing something carefully laid out in a still photo, and seeing it being used. Their main selling point seems to be the chain's construction disguising the layout - a point I think is of little consequence in the performance of the effect. And as I said before, when performing Fast & Loose it really doesn't matter whether the mark thinks they can work out the chain's layout, as the operator is always in control and can always make them win or lose. I'm not, of course, saying it's not a good chain - I'm sure it's very good, but cheaper alternatives exist which do the job admirably. After all, it's not just about the chain - the performance (patter, technique, spectator management, etc.) all have roles to play in this effect, as they do in all effects. If the layout of the chain is that important, I would suggest that there's something wrong in the performance somewhere. So as I said before, I will buy the SFS DVD as it sounds good, but I'm not convinced that the chain is worth spending over £30 on. Rich |
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Posted: Apr 5, 2013 11:41 am 
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