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ravi Elite user Germany 413 Posts |
I just went through some of the older posts in this section. One question that always comes up from time to time is the "what book should I start with?" question.
Although I find these posts and answers really enjoyable and worth reading ( and learning!) I have a different opinion on this and would like to hear from you all what you what you think of it. But please!!!!!!!!!!! : This is not a "ONLY this way or that way" thing. Mentalism and magic is so broad and diverse, there is a room for different opinions. A lot of the Café members will tell you that the best "starter point" would be the now classic books of Corinda and Annemann. I have to agree but: I wished , I had read the Derren Brown books "Pure Effect" and Absolute Magic" , when I started magic/ mentalism (20 years ago ). Just think of the chapter: "with the spectator... in mind" in "Pure Effect" I wished, I had read this at the beginning. It is good to read the classics but there is so much more. Only after reading Brown`s books, I realized that my magic/ mentalism was just at the beginning and that there are so much more possibilities. Or take the new mentalism/ suggestion style of Luke Jermay. When I start a new thing, I want to know about the possibilities of that matter: Where are my place within this artform? What is possible? How far can I get? Which way did other mentalists go? Where are the boundaries? What do I want to communicate to my audience and what should they see when I am performing? Could it be that you read the Derren Brown books first and then go to the classics like Annemann and Corinda? I think YES! I am talking of "reading", not of performing Derren´s tricks. But you get a totally new insight to magic and mentalism and it triggers your dreams and your imagination. There have been no other books on magic/mentalism that made me think so much and changed my performance that much I perform NO trick of Derren Brown. I just think that these books are good to start to learn the theory behind mentalism and magic. For learning tricks and effects ( learn the basics) , you can go to the classics then. Then after getting an experienced performer, you can come back to Derren´s tricks and try them out( if you really need to do so, better develop your own things) To put it together: When you want to start with mentalism, start thinking! Who are you and where do you want to go? Yes, if you want to, read Jermay or Brown or Knepper or Busch etc. But read them for the theory behind our artform. Forget the tricks in these books! Realize that these are top performers and at the beginning, it doesn´t make any sense to start with tricks , contained in this books. Parallel to that or after, read the classics , perform these classics, gain confidence and develop your own style. But you will know, what is possible and what other great mentalists have made out of this classics. The only thing , that is the problem with this is your own honesty: It does make absolutely no sense to perform a Derren Brown or Luke Jermay mindreading routine as your first trick. But you know what can be made out of Annemann and Corinda and find your own way, because people like Jermay , Knepper or Brown gave you wonderful theoretical insights to this wonderful branch of magic. What do you THINK?
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bevbevvybev Inner circle UK 2672 Posts |
First book I read on Mentalism was Banachek's Psychological Subtleties
I'm very glad for that, it was the possibilties that it described which propelled me forward, even though there are no 'effects' in it really. Reading Corinda after that was 'interesting' but not exactly explosive. The first things I got from Corinda were pencil reading and memory tests. As far as I'm concerned a lot of Corinda is littered with effects that no one is going to perform nowadays. It does however cover many techniques which you can then find more in depth description of in other books depending on what takes your fancy. However, with the advent of the internet and all the information available I am starting to question if the 13 Steps is really 'essential reading' The Annemann stuff I do think is essential reading as it lets you into the mindset of mentalism. Corinda never did that for me; it is more of a technical manual. The Annemann thinking helps you think for yourself, and like I said about the Banachek, opens up your mind to start approaching mentalism as a mentalist, as opposed to a magician wanting to do mental magic. |
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ravi Elite user Germany 413 Posts |
I agree with you.
Banachek´s Psychological Subtleties is one more example of a book that shows you a certain way( not necessary your own) and triggers your own thoughts.
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bootweasel Regular user 124 Posts |
I think you make a bunch of good points, I believe that what Corinda does is really give you the basic tools to do the job. Like a textbook, if you need to refer to a basic technique, Corinda is your starting point.
'Earning your salt' as a mentalist is not an idea I'm particularly fond of. But a grounding in the fundamentals is essential, it gives you the ability to understand other mentalists, see alternative methods and evaluate the merits of new ideas. Perhaps, as you suggest, what's needed is a book to read alongside Corinda to teach theory, inspire, foster a deeper understanding of the art and make the beginner feel in touch with modern mentalism. But also important is a resource of great tricks that they can try 'right out of the box', to give them the appetite to learn. If you check out the 39 books listed on Bob Cassidy's website he makes some astute comments on which he feels are important and why. It's well worth a read. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Ravi,
I agree with you that everymentalist and magician should read Derren Brown's work. He is terrific, and it's great that you got so much out of reading him. I think why most people don't point beginners to Derren first, is that it can take some sophistication and experience to appreciate what he has to say. Obviously this wasn't a problem in your case. It may take others a while to see what he's getting at. Sometimes books on theory are derided by beginners as devoid of tricks. A recent thread for example called Darwin Ortiz' Strong Magic, "a dull and pointless book." Well, no, actually. That comment says more about the writer of that comment than Ortiz. Anyway there are many roads to Rome, and each person must find their own salvation. We can only make suggestions. Jack Shalom
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John LeBlanc Special user Houston, TX 524 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-12-15 06:25, ravi wrote: I think it's best to get a good grounding on the fundamentals of magic. Bob Cassidy has mentioned this in lots of places. Consider the source. It's my opinion that Henry Hay's "Amateur Magician's Handbook" is a better first reader than just about anything else, as much as I love Derren Brown's essays and Corinda's bible. Nothing can take the place of learning to walk before you run. John LeBlanc Houston, TX |
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Mark Strivings V.I.P. 290 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-12-15 22:29, John W. LeBlanc wrote: Well said, John. Some of the references mentioned above are very heavy in the theory end of things (which is much of the basic point of this thread), but it takes a fairly mature level of background and experience in virtually any field to truly get the most out of the heavy theoretical end of things. I would submit that unless the hypothetical 'beginner' in mentalism that we have been alluding to above is already an accomplished and experienced performer in other somewhat related fields, much of this theoretical grounding will be falling on ears too new to hear or fully understand it. Consider, too, in this discussion that hindsight is 20/20. Those of us who have been around for a long time can lament and say (with that 20/20 hindsight perspective) that we wished we had this reference or that reference before we did the basic works of the trade, but keep in mind that perspective is heavily tinted by years of experience that we simply did NOT have 'back in the day'. Is there any more of a chance that we were truly ready at that early stage of OUR development for this level of material, than the hypothetical counterpart we've been discussing? I have my doubts. There's a reason why certain texts ARE basic and why they recommended over and over. Not to mention that, at least in magic, there's currently a rash of youngsters (relatively speaking) who have little to no grounding in the basic texts of that art, who are coming up with things (ideas, concepts, effects, etc.) based on what little they know, and are either reinventing the wheel over and over, or couldn't even begin to tell you where that revolutionary new effect they invented may have come from (frequently a book from 50 years ago). There is intrinsic and concrete value in thoroughly assimilating the classic and basic texts of any art and mentalism is no different. I'm not saying for one split second that the above cited references are not of value, quite the contrary. But there is experience and knowledge that these references pre-suppose and assume is in place. Any structure built on a weak or ill-designed foundation will need a ton of repair that might not have been necessary if things were done right to begin with. Walking before one can run is always a good idea... Mark Strivings
Mark Strivings is the owner of the largest all-mentalism mail order supply business in the world, "Mental Connections", carrying materials not available anywhere else. For complete info, drop Mark a line at MarkyApril@aol.com
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Michael Singer New user Seattle 33 Posts |
Good points, Mark. (And thanks for the catalog!)
Call me crazy, but returning to magic recently after many years (and discovering mentalism in the process), I decided to go about it the way I personally go about studying any subject: by voraciously devouring anything I can get my hands on that calls out to me or looks even remotely interesting. (Expensive and perhaps misguided, but fun!) I rationalize this seemingly absurd behavior by pointing to what accelerative learning guru Paul Scheele calls "syntopic reading" in his book "PhotoReading" (an interesting read if you're into this sort of thing). The general idea is that by reading more than one book on a given subject you're doing the literary equivalent of comparison shopping, "exposing yourself to various viewpoints, and choosing or constructing one that ultimately rings true for you. Your truth comes from your reasoning, overall knowledge, and reflection on experience--not just from the last book you read." So, when it came to mentalism, I dug right in, mixing classic tomes with modern books and pamphlets and tapes. The resulting list (and pile on my night table) may look (ahem...would certainly look) unfocused and premature to someone with far more experience, but I'm happy with the madness of my method, and here's why: I'm developing my own relationship to this material, and to the art as a whole. In the same way that someone who just picks up a guitar and starts goofing around writing songs will eventually realize he needs a foundation of basic skills and knowledge to make real progress, so too will the seemingly floundering magician/mentalist, I think. Interestingly, when I do look at the classics now, I'm reading them with a personalized purpose that goes far beyond just reading a book because it's a classic. Corinda's 13 Steps was the first book I bought on mentalism. I was bored by it, and put it down after an hour. It wasn't until after I made my way through some Brown, Knepper, Cassidy, Osterlind, Rowland, Banachek, Harris, Kurtz, AND McGill that I realized just how important (and fascinating) Corinda's 13 Steps really are. (I know, I know...) Granted, not everyone learns best this way. It's admittedly a bit overwhelming to my conscious mind. But my subconscious mind loves it, and is hard at work behind the scenes making connections between all the sources...making this art my own. A simple lack of self-discipline? Perhaps. A lack of focus? Maybe. A lack of experience? Definately! Good thread. Mike
"The answer is never the answer. What's really interesting is the mystery." - Ken Kesey
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bevbevvybev Inner circle UK 2672 Posts |
Michael -
That's how I've always learned things, and I goof around writing songs for a living! |
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shrink Inner circle 2609 Posts |
My first books and videos were useless to me. I got into Mentalism seriously because I wanted to add a mentalism section to my already successful Stage Hypnosis show. It was suggested that I read the usual Anneman's Mental Magic and 13 Steps. I got Annemans then a few videos which included the old style centre tear from corinda. It was a John Tremaine video if I remember. I have to be honest here they were absolutely useless as far as adding a commercial section to my show. I still do not own a copy of 13 steps. Perhaps one day I will. I ended up exploring a lot of material by chance and experimentation. Lee Earle provided me with some pretty good routines I could actually use. I also paid quite a lot of money for expensive commercial systems that were really powerful to use.
Ok in a sense I had already been performing. But sometimes when I hear the same recommendations made over and over again religeoulsy I think there is no imagination or originailty if we all go down the same route of exploration. From the video I got exposure to basic Corinda style billet work and hated it from the minute I saw it. In general my feelings for billets have not changed. Although I do use Alain Bellon's OO and am considering exploring Bush's new billet handlings! If I had stuck blindly to these recommendations then it would've taken years to have a commercial mentalism section to my shows and I may have wasted a lot of time. I would say to anyone follow your gut feeling. Sure the classics may be worth reading but like academics sudying them may not actually provide you with real world modern skills or killer routines.( in my opinion) Mentalism is a wide subject that can take in a number of fields. Its ok that all of us do not agree with everyone. In fact that's how new creations are discovered. |
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bootweasel Regular user 124 Posts |
I see what you're saying, but you don't buy Corinda for routines. You read it to become more educated about the techniques that form the basis for modern mentalism. It is, for example, a good idea to know what a swami gimmick is and it's variations.
In my opinion it's really a read-once then move on book. A text-book primer, to get you up to speed. It might be old, but the fact still remains that the centre tear is still around, you don't have to like it to appreciate the value in knowing what it is and how it can be used. I think that the danger in buying pre-packaged professional level mentalism is that you can end up doing someone else's act verbaitam, with no real tools to let you make it your own. Perhaps DVDs like Max Maven's and Richard Osterlind's are the best starting point, strong, solid material where you can experience the impact yourself and learn about presentation directly. But like I said in my previous post, they need to be coupled with a good understanding of standard tools and techniques. |
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shrink Inner circle 2609 Posts |
Thing about Corinda I never liked some of the standard tools such as the swami or his billets in general.
I needed items for a professional show that was established. I still use these principles which have grown into my own style and more recently I have developed a new system and new effects based on them. They are not widely used and have a devestating effect on an audience. You won't see many using them! The only point Im making is there is more than one route and everyone should follow their gut instincts. |
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ravi Elite user Germany 413 Posts |
Shrink said:
"The only point Im making is there is more than one route and everyone should follow their gut instincts. " Just , what I think! To Mark: Although I might have a slightly different opinion on some of your comments, you have written a wonderful post in which there is a lot of truth. Thank you!
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John LeBlanc Special user Houston, TX 524 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-12-16 01:41, Mark Strivings wrote: I'll bet I had "Greater Magic" on my shelf for sixteen or seventeen years -- YEARS -- before I opened that book seriously to read it. I did kid shows for many, many years before I got into close-up, and mentalism came after all that. Yet, one of the first books I happened upon when I first got into magic was Annemann's Practical Mental Effects. Care to guess how long it was before I creaked open its spine? The ancient eastern proverb makes more and more sense to me every day: When the student is ready, the teacher will appear. "Greater Magic" and "Annemann's Practical Mental Effects" were on my shelf virtually forever. But neither became my teacher until I was ready to read them. I suspect a beginner owning something from Derren, or two-fisting a copy of Mind, Myth & Magic, while very interesting, exciting, filled with gold, will be of greater value once the lay of land becomes clearer. I'm a big believer in books, so I don't want to leave the impression I disagree with swimming in knowledge. But the often repeated phrase "knowledge is power" is completely incorrect. Knowledge is potential power; action is power. And it takes experience to know how to act. John LeBlanc Houston, TX |
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Axman Veteran user 400 Posts |
One of the first pure mentalism books I got was paramiracles.
I thought it was useless. This was probably 10 years or so ago. I have very recently re read it and now I think it's an absolutely FANTASTIC book. When the student is ready the teacher will appear is so true. Btw great post from Micheal Singer! |
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shrink Inner circle 2609 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-12-16 11:23, Axman wrote: I agree but we may not all have the same teachers! |
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Brent Allan Elite user Chicago 415 Posts |
I would have to agree that Banachek and Derren Brown have some great ideas that a beginning mentalist would benefit from. However, let's look at what these ideas are. Derren has a lot of great theory that has lots of practical applications. I don't much care for the effects in "Pure Effect." I have not read "Absolute Magic" and his television shows are not applicable here. Then you have "Psychological Subtleties," again full of great ideas and some actual practical effects, although not 100% and requiring a strong presentation.
I would consider these to be akin to books on designing cabinets. What types of wood to use, what contours and aesthetic elements to add to make the best cabinet possible. I would compare Corinda and Anneman to giant tool boxes that show "Here is how to use a hammer, this is how a saw is used." Basic elements and techniques. But if one reads Brown and Banachek without these basic techniques and elements, they may have a lot of great theory, and nothing to perform! This is why I would still recommend Corinda and Anneman first.
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Anabelle Special user 951 Posts |
I've read so much and I think it has helped. I think it's just like what Michael said. It has really helped reading everything I could get my hands on and along the way, think, and practice in the real world what I've put together in my mind. I started in mentalism because of an ex boyfriend mentalist who only let me in after he was sure I was not just into secrets, along the way he became a mentor and since then I've had other mentors and have studied tons!!
Anabelle |
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mystic1 Veteran user 342 Posts |
Start simple with Fulves
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drwilson Inner circle Bar Harbor, ME 2191 Posts |
There are some excellent points here, as always in the Café. It is hard for me to be objective about Corinda, because I read it very early and it completely overwhelmed me with possibilities.
So far, I haven't seen anything in this thread directly addressing the development of your character. I found Eugene Burger's books to be excellent in pointing me in the direction of discovering who I was, and what sort of life experience was there to build a character on. You also have to listen to people's reaction to you, and if you respect their opinion, go in that direction. I am surprised to find myself as an overblown 19th-century pitchman, but that is how this process has cast me. I would be very interested to hear recommended resources in this area. I like Eugene Burger, as I mentioned, and Doc Shiels. Yours, Paul |
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