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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Scam School Exposure (41 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Kyoki_Sanitys_Eclipse
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That starts to address part of my question but read just a little way back on my comment about the difference between the library and youtube. YouTube may have instruction but it has a lot more stupid crap than instruction. don't degrade the information contained in a library to youtube. Also there isn't any real serious attempt from the people that visit your cite to learn magic. Most of them just want to learn the secret. One of the ways my students learn how a trick is done and then ruin it for my other students is through your channel. Which brings me to the biggest problem I have with your teaching. You present magic as only a trick or a bet. Have you read any of the great essays on magic? However I did like your part about magic piracy. Please feel free to read this entire thread. Take notes and reply to others concerns. Not just mine.
Kyoki_Sanitys_Eclipse
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Again I don't see how you are creating more good than harm. Unless you could show us what percent of people that visit your channel actually try to learn magic. If you could show me how it's making a real difference in the magic community it may change my mind, if not others. Also again, not trying to beat a dead horse, do something on the philosophy of presentation.
ScamSchoolBrian
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Quote:
Which brings me to the biggest problem I have with your teaching. You present magic as only a trick or a bet.


I think you're confusing the conceit of the show for its point. Yes, we act as though the goal is always to win a free beer, but that's just the MacGuffin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGuffin). My true goal is and always has been to get people learning good magic. Along this journey, we learn about storytelling, the ethics of magic, proper plot construction, improvisation, the value of practice...all of the lessons I suspect you'd hold dear.

I can understand if you'd think the presentation feels slimy (I mean, it's meant to... I'm trying to appeal to 21-year-olds hitting up the bar), but I think if you dig beneath the surface, you'll discover a lot of extremely valuable lessons to any magic neophyte.

Did you happen to read this letter from Teller I posted? http://www.scamstuff.com/pages/the-best-......received This is pretty much the lesson I'm trying to put out to young magicians. Often in the form of silly videos like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWsXI-XJRuA
Kyoki_Sanitys_Eclipse
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While that is a great inspirational video you still only brush the top of my question. Your presentation felt exactly how you present it and I feel it degrades the wonder of magic to a mere intellectual puzzle. Please answer the rest of my post and others. Show us your making a difference and not just money.
Dannydoyle
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What is wrong with making money?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
ScamSchoolBrian
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On Dec 9, 2015, Kyoki_Sanitys_Eclipse wrote:
While that is a great inspirational video you still only brush the top of my question. Your presentation felt exactly how you present it and I feel it degrades the wonder of magic to a mere intellectual puzzle. Please answer the rest of my post and others. Show us your making a difference and not just money.


I'm not sure how to answer this... did you ask a question?
Kyoki_Sanitys_Eclipse
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That was more of a statement. I'm saying go back over all of our posts and answer our questions. However it's not like you have to do that it is simply up to you. I was just the first to bite and you haven't answered all the questions in my posts. Why ask more yet.

There's nothing wrong with making money Danny it's all about how you do it. A lot of it has to do with intent to me.
ScamSchoolBrian
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Quote:
On Dec 9, 2015, Kyoki_Sanitys_Eclipse wrote:
That was more of a statement. I'm saying go back over all of our posts and answer our questions. However it's not like you have to do that it is simply up to you. I was just the first to bite and you haven't answered all the questions in my posts. Why ask more yet.

There's nothing wrong with making money Danny it's all about how you do it. A lot of it has to do with intent to me.


I don't think I have the bandwidth to crawl through all those past posts you mentioned, but if you have any questions I'm happy to answer them to the best of my ability.

Brian
Kyoki_Sanitys_Eclipse
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Just the ones I've presented on this page already. Why not take the time if you truly care what others think and take notes and answer their concerns. If not why even bother on here at all.
ScamSchoolBrian
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Why not take the time if you truly care what others think and take notes and answer their concerns.


Because then I'd only be cherry-picking questions from a back catalog, and I don't think it would give us a productive dialogue to assemble a straw man from spare parts. I'd much, much rather just chat directly.

I do gather from your previous post that "exposure is wrong," but what does that mean? Are private instructions, books, VHS tapes, DVDs, and downloadable video files exposure? What about Free Trick Fridays on murphysmagic.com? I'd love to get a clear sense on what you perceive to be the difference between "teaching" and "exposure."
Dannydoyle
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Hmmmm not wanting to cherry pick and piece together a staw man? You are new aren't ya?

I like the stance.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Kyoki_Sanitys_Eclipse
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Private leasons, books, dvds and the such wouldn't be exposure. They actually take time and effort on the part of the learner to obtain and use. This is something a person truly interested in learning would do. YouTube is a flight of fancy for most people that holds much more short entertainment than true value. I have seen to many times my student use it to expose my tricks to my other students just to seem smart or special and gain attentiom. This destroys it for them. You say you do this to create magicians s but how many of the people that view your channel actually ever try the magic. But I also have a problem with how you present magic. Your presentation is what people will copy and the lay audience hates look at me magicians. What books have you read on magic philosophy?
Overworked
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"Private leasons, books, dvds and the such wouldn't be exposure." Why isn't it exposure? Is there any criteria for determining who can purchase a DVD? Of course not. Here is what is not exposure: don't tell anyone. I'm pretty sure Ricky Jay feels exactly that way, which is why we don't see Ricky Jay writing any books or doing any DVD's for magicians. Magicians have been making money selling and exposing secrets for a hundred years. Once you make a book, dvd, or other medium available where you explain magic secrets, and make it publicly, it is by definition exposure. The old days you would learn from someone one on one.


"You say you do this to create magicians s but how many of the people that view your channel actually ever try the magic. "

Boy, you could say that about the majority of magic book buyers.

"But I also have a problem with how you present magic. Your presentation is what people will copy and the lay audience hates look at me magicians. What books have you read on magic philosophy?"

You are entitled your opinion, but I don't think you've demonstrated any expertise that would make you an expert on magic presentation, or to criticize someone elses approach.
Dannydoyle
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So are those who complain professionals, amateur hoping to turn pro or hobby guys?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
ScamSchoolBrian
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Quote:
On Dec 10, 2015, Kyoki_Sanitys_Eclipse wrote:
Private leasons, books, dvds and the such wouldn't be exposure. They actually take time and effort on the part of the learner to obtain and use.


It sounds like we both agree here (luckily, so does the IBM and SAM): As long as prospective students are investing time and effort, they're outwardly proving they want to join our brotherhood.

We appear to disagree on whether learning from YouTube videos counts in this regard, and I'm curious to hear more. Why wouldn't watching a ton of magic tutorials count? (Heck, just watching all of just Scam School alone would require two full 40-hour work weeks, which seems like a substantial investment to me.)

There's no doubt (to me) that there are real, talented magicians out there who won't ever set foot in a library (according to the emails I get, often for the simple reason that they don't have access to one). YouTube is their only practical option. Seems like they deserve a place at the magic table.

On the other hand, I absolutely acknowledge that there will definitely be people who watch YouTube videos and choose not to attempt some tricks, but I don't think that's anything new: We already had people who read Hugard and Braue and think "Rubbish. I'll never do these tricks."

I suspect there's a place for those magic academics at the table, too. I remember those guys at my local magic clubs: they bought every set of lecture notes, and I never once saw them perform a trick. I'd wager magic is better off for their decades of study, even though they don't ever perform.
Kyoki_Sanitys_Eclipse
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I think you have a valid endevor and the stidents that pit in that kind of time are truly interested. However, I would bet money that more than 90 percent of the people that use your channel will never try a magic trick for anyone. That is why I consider it exposure. Only because the mass majority are using only to learn a secret. As for my credentials as to my ability to speak on magic philosophy. I can only say that I have read all the great books like the Books of Wonder, the Ortiz series and others like Ascanio. I look at how magic is presented only from the way I have read it and presented it. I don't know what you would call me. I have been practicing four years hard and a little my whole life. I have used magic in my waiting tables and for my students at schiol. I'm not sure what that is classified as. However, I would agree my opinion means very little in the grand scheme of things. It is simply how I feel. I would like to know how the authors I have mentioned feel personally.
Dannydoyle
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Well what if someone decides you are an armature not entitled to secrets and teaching you is exposure? It is a valid opinion. Keeping secrets from those who are not working professionals is a valid classification. I am not saying I agree with it but to stop exposure one way to do so would be only working pros having secrets. Since you love magic so much would you accept this solution? Beget for the art and all.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Kyoki_Sanitys_Eclipse
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I would never give up magic. I put in an hour a day of practice and read on my art. I show it love and dedication.
Dannydoyle
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So perhaps the time has come to stop the judgment of others.

Even if it was best for the art you would not give it up. Pretty selfish of you.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Kyoki_Sanitys_Eclipse
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Say what you want but there's no way that would be better for the art. Also I have judged no one. Only given my opinion. However I have tired of this topic. I've learned that having discussion is impossible on here. Therefore I will simply give my opinion and move on.
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