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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Scam School Exposure (41 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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ZachDavenport
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Technically it is wrong, but I have yet to meet someone who has seen an episode of scam school. I don't agree with people revealing tricks for thousands, but how many here have had someone know your trick because of watching scam school?
Reality is a real killjoy.
ZachDavenport
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I don't understand why you would want to expose tricks. You can make money if your any good at magic, so if you expose for a living it probably means that you are not that great a magician. If you expose magic because you are not good enough too make money performing, I think anyone could see that it is pathetic. If you expose a trick it takes the ability to perform those tricks effectively from magicians. Also those who expose take the fantasy from magic. Ever since the masked magician people see magic as a puzzle instead of a enjoyable art.
Reality is a real killjoy.
kasper
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The magic community has come down to exposure. If the lay audience looks up magic on the internet they always say they come across sites and magicians trying to sell them something. If you look up magicians that are visiting your town, guess what ? It will be a lecture. If you want to see these big names in magic you will probably have to see them at a lecture.

Ive never seen a public mentalism show advertised. EVER! But they pitch lectures.

Maybe that's maybe where the market is. Think about it. You can make a lot more money selling stuff at a lecture then you probably can selling a public show. You can just keep writing and writing and writing for magicians. And they will keep buying and buying and buying! Ha I think its clever. Its the ultimate cult leaders dream!

Its kind of like when a mentalist or psychic sells "psychic development courses." Which is clever also. Ha ! love it!
ZachDavenport
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Quote:
On Jul 31, 2014, Terapin wrote:
It's a little frustrating that the same issues a) I have a right to restrict other people's legal speech to protect my income, b) I have a right to decide what audiences want or enjoy keep coming up. I understand people have these opinions, but I find them to have no basis in logic.
Hate crimes are crimes (at least where I live) they are not the same at all as legal speech about card tricks.

Ok, it is not a hate crime, but in my opinion if you respect the art of magic you will not reveal the secrets to the general public easily. It is one thing to reveal the double undercut to generate interest in magic, but some videos reveal trademark tricks of well respected magicians.
Reality is a real killjoy.
Terapin
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Yes, I get that people hold that opinion. I just don't understand the logic it is based on.
For the record, I highly doubt that many magicians hold 'trademarks'.
ZachDavenport
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Let me give a hypothetical scenario. You have something that is very valuable to you, it could have monetary value or it could be sentimental. You go and hide this somewhere, so it is not stolen, and you tell someone you know where it is. You even make your friend promise not to share the secret with anyone. The next day you find out that your friend posted the location of your item on the internet, and sure enough the item is gone. would you consider what his friend did ethical? Because that is exactly what revealing tricks on the internet is doing.
Reality is a real killjoy.
Dougini
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On Jul 31, 2014, ZachDavenport wrote:
...in my opinion if you respect the art of magic you will not reveal the secrets to the general public...


Bottom line. Why is this so hard to understand? But I am not forcing you to respect it. That is YOUR choice. If you do NOT, and expose secrets, you will hear from US!

Doug
Jamie Ferguson
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Brian Brushyourwood is exposing secrets that are the result of other people's hard work. He is a leech.
When the chips are down, the duvet is uncomfortable.
Terapin
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Quote:
On Aug 1, 2014, ZachDavenport wrote:
Let me give a hypothetical scenario. You have something that is very valuable to you, it could have monetary value or it could be sentimental. You go and hide this somewhere, so it is not stolen, and you tell someone you know where it is. You even make your friend promise not to share the secret with anyone. The next day you find out that your friend posted the location of your item on the internet, and sure enough the item is gone. would you consider what his friend did ethical? Because that is exactly what revealing tricks on the internet is doing.

Well, to be fair, that's not what's happening at all. Someone stealing an item so that I don't have it any more is not remotely the same thing as someone telling a secret.
ZachDavenport
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Quote:
On Aug 4, 2014, Terapin wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 1, 2014, ZachDavenport wrote:
Let me give a hypothetical scenario. You have something that is very valuable to you, it could have monetary value or it could be sentimental. You go and hide this somewhere, so it is not stolen, and you tell someone you know where it is. You even make your friend promise not to share the secret with anyone. The next day you find out that your friend posted the location of your item on the internet, and sure enough the item is gone. would you consider what his friend did ethical? Because that is exactly what revealing tricks on the internet is doing.

Well, to be fair, that's not what's happening at all. Someone stealing an item so that I don't have it any more is not remotely the same thing as someone telling a secret.

Maybe magic secrets are not important to you, but they are very important to me. If a trick is revealed on a large scale, that means the trick will no longer amaze people; therefore the ability to effectively perform the trick has been stolen from me. Teaching a simple, and not that amazing trick to get people into magic, That is one thing, but on scam school they are in some cases teaching marketed effects.
Reality is a real killjoy.
mastermindreader
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I agree with you Zach, and it's completely wrong.
Terapin
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Quote:
On Aug 4, 2014, ZachDavenport wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 4, 2014, Terapin wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 1, 2014, ZachDavenport wrote:
Let me give a hypothetical scenario. You have something that is very valuable to you, it could have monetary value or it could be sentimental. You go and hide this somewhere, so it is not stolen, and you tell someone you know where it is. You even make your friend promise not to share the secret with anyone. The next day you find out that your friend posted the location of your item on the internet, and sure enough the item is gone. would you consider what his friend did ethical? Because that is exactly what revealing tricks on the internet is doing.

Well, to be fair, that's not what's happening at all. Someone stealing an item so that I don't have it any more is not remotely the same thing as someone telling a secret.

Maybe magic secrets are not important to you, but they are very important to me. If a trick is revealed on a large scale, that means the trick will no longer amaze people; therefore the ability to effectively perform the trick has been stolen from me. Teaching a simple, and not that amazing trick to get people into magic, That is one thing, but on scam school they are in some cases teaching marketed effects.

Right- but I feel like the issue here is that you have built a business model that depends on everyone else in the world doing what you tell them with regard to sharing certain information. I just think that it's pretty unreasonable to expect people to behave the way that you ask them simply because if they do you can make more money.
ZachDavenport
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I am not a professional magician. It is not about money. In fact I have turned down money to reveal a trick to someone. I do magic because I love the art. Not everything is about money. I can't tell anyone to do anything, but for reasons previously stated to reveal someone else's intellectual property is simply unethical.
Reality is a real killjoy.
Terapin
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Quote:
On Aug 5, 2014, ZachDavenport wrote:
I am not a professional magician. It is not about money. In fact I have turned down money to reveal a trick to someone. I do magic because I love the art. Not everything is about money. I can't tell anyone to do anything, but for reasons previously stated to reveal someone else's intellectual property is simply unethical.


When you use the word 'intellectual property' I find it quite confusing, because the term has a very specific meaning, and I don't think you are using it in the same way the rest of the world is. It seems that you are claiming property rights that are not recognized by the legal system or the population at large, which is problematic.
mastermindreader
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I'm sure Zach doesn't mean "intellectual property" in the legal sense. He is simply showing respect for the secrets of others who perform magic as a livelihood.

Do you see that as "problematic?"
ZachDavenport
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I don't mean it in the sense that it has a patent or any other legal protection, but in the sense that if someone comes up with and markets something, the idea belongs to him. It is still legal to reveal it, but it is not ethical as it is not your idea.
Reality is a real killjoy.
Terapin
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I see it as problematic when someone lays claim to 'property' intellectually or other, that there is not general agreement is 'theirs'. In a very real sense this is appropriation of a common resource (knowledge). For anyone to lay claim to something (even an idea) that is commonly owned (and that is the understanding in law and in society at large) is problematic. It is the same kind of 'theft' (although I do not see that as the correct term) that you rail against.
mastermindreader
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So you believe that magic secrets are a "common resource" to be distributed freely? Is that a fair characterization of your position?
Terapin
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On Aug 5, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
So you believe that magic secrets are a "common resource" to be distributed freely? Is that a fair characterization of your position?


I think that knowledge in general, that is not specially legally protected, is a common resource that no one has the right to commandeer for private benefit.
Atlas
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Quote:
On Aug 5, 2014, Terapin wrote:
I think that knowledge in general, that is not specially legally protected, is a common resource that no one has the right to commandeer for private benefit.


I'm not attacking you here Terapin - in fact, it takes tremendous courage to challenge tradition and prevailing wisdom. But I want to point out the inanity of this all.

You said that no one has the right to commandeer general knowledge for private benefit?

Let's follow your logic:

General knowledge tells me that Santa Claus does not exist.

This knowledge is not legally protected.

No one should commandeer this knowledge (as a common resource) for private benefit.

By keeping this fact a secret, parents all over the world are bringing joy to children at Christmastime.

Deceitful, self-serving, immoral monsters.

These children have a right to know that they are being misled by their parents so that the magic of their holiday can be buried forever in ignominy and shame. Then Christmas could be cancelled and all the children would be much happier.

The trouble with generalizations, stereotypes, rules, laws, and philosophy is that there will always be a circumstantial exception to the statement with a subsequent argument over what the correct outcome might be.

This has been demonstrated time and again in this thread.

Sometimes people just won't change their minds my friend. So arguing is not only a waste of time, but actually hurts the case a person is trying to make as they begin to resort to petty tit-for-tat exchanges in the heat of the moment. Rather than cogently and respectfully exchange ideas with an open-minded view to making an informed decision, people tend to resort to name calling, or attack one word in a sentence when one of the foundational points of their perspective has been undermined.

There is a difference between writing a persuasive paper and genuinely seeking out the truth of a position.

I happen to disagree with you, by the way, and for reasons that are based on personal experience and (without trying to minimize you or your perspective) which I doubt you could fathom without having my same background - I have no doubt that you believe your stance is the right one for you, but I also have little doubt that your perspective might change if you'd walked for ten years in my shoes, or Bob's shoes, or any other performer's shoes.

And that is another reason that all of this arguing is pointless: we are all the result of our own circumstances and experience, with varying levels of personal intelligence and from dynamic upbringings.

I don't think mankind has unanimously agreed on anything.

Best,

Atlas
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