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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Fellowship of Christian Magicians! » » How does a Christian perform "mind reading" or "metal bending?" (28 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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OzJosh
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On Jun 28, 2014, DavidKenney wrote:
...is that a serious question or are you trying to play devil's advocate?

Of course it's a calling and not "just a job" to me. But I also have hobbies and I have a social life that allows me to relax and unwind. Being a minister is a sacrificial life and so I have to work into my life moments of down time to allow myself to recharge, otherwise we experience something called "burn out." 90% of pastors report working between 55 to 75 hours per week and 50% feel unable to meet the demands of the job. Almost 1,700 pastors leave the ministry each month and 50% of the new ministers starting tomorrow won't be around in 5 years. Those are frightening statistics! Perhaps Magic is how you make your living and you're a professional, and that's your "calling" but for me it's an escape and it's a way to force my mind to think about a different topic for a few hours.

"What kind of a Pastor would not want to take every opportunity to represent God?" well, I guess my answer is a selfish one. I am a broken sinner who admittedly fails to seize "every opportunity." Believe me, I pray every day that God would make me a better man, a better Father and a better shepherd, but for some reason my growth as a disciple is a slow one.

Believe me, I wanted to be James Bond or Spiderman when I grew up, but God had different plans. He keeps telling me that He can use me and that "His grace is sufficient for me" and I just have to trust that He knows what He's doing.



you sir, inspire.

I think there is a way to do it and have fun with it in a innocent way and making sure people know that it's a trick and it's not really mind reading.
why not even grab a few of the gys and get them to say the magicians oath and make a fellowship bonding thing.

that way you get to help grow some guys, get close to them, have fun, not be drained, have people to work out tricks with.
have a Magic show at church and do it with those guys.
2 or 3.

that way you get to have your escape as well as expanding the gifts.

I'm Sure God will point those guys out (and make it guys, have some guy time and laughs)
Magic is the ability to lie and people to love you for it and want you to lie to them again and again and again
www.redtopbox.com.au
^^^^^ has some really cool things on it
katyannmarie
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I find this discussion very interesting on two fronts.
The first is pretty confusing to me. It seems from this thread and others I've read that there is a lopsided (in my opinion) view that there is a fear that people think there is something other than a trick involved with magic shows. I don't understand why a disclaimer of any kind needs to be put out there that "these are just tricks" to begin with. I think that disclaimer insults the intelligence of the audience. Although there may be some in every crowd that are clueless about reality, the burden is on the naysayer to give evidence that something is wrong with what is being said or done. No matter what one does, there will be critics. I have to go back to both Jesus and Paul who did what they did and said what they said without apology or preemptive comment for fear of someone misunderstanding. Both at times explained themselves or clarified a point afterwards, but only to those who honestly had questions. Jesus was as offensive to religious people questioning his choices in his answer to the critiques as he was in what was originally done. If someone is actually confused about what's behind a trick, they surely can be educated about it later when time can be spent answering the concern. That's what Paul did when some accused him of saying a person can do whatever he wants because he is free. I just don't get the fear of offending or confusing others that so many seem to have.
I also find the discussion of calling/burnout/hobbies interesting. One can always tell who is called to a profession as opposed to someone entering a profession for other reasons. The more demanding a profession, the more of a need for down time and hobbies to stay balanced. Jesus took down time even when people had pressing needs. It's obvious that Paul had interest in sports by all the analogies he made to boxing and training and running and the Olympics. It's not selfish to have your needs met. Even machines break down without proper maintenance. People aren't machines. Paul was worn out by the extreme demands of his calling and it was the calling that kept him going. Imagine the rigors without the calling, and it's no wonder so many quit. Anyone in any of the fields dealing with people are going to suffer if they are in it for any other reason than serving people in whatever capacity. Religion won't be any less demanding especially if in it for the wrong reasons.
Mike Ince
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The Apostle Paul and Barnabas performed a work of healing as recorded in Acts chapter 14. The locals, with religious fervor, called Barnabas "Zeus" and Paul "Hermes" and intended to sacrifice to them.

"But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard this, they tore their clothes and ran in among the multitude, crying out and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them..."

These two men of God were upset that their good works had led to idolatrous confusion. They clearly stated they were just men. I think this passage is germane to our discussion. Your thoughts?
The secret of deception is in making the truth seem ridiculous.
Russo
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When we do anything "mind reading"(mental epic-etc.) we usually mention "if I really could do this" - what does OUR LORD feel when he DOES hear-what YOUR THINKING.
RagnarzA
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Great thread
OzJosh
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I tell people that I can not say how I do what I do, but none of it is real and it's all for the entertainment of people as God gifted me to do so
Magic is the ability to lie and people to love you for it and want you to lie to them again and again and again
www.redtopbox.com.au
^^^^^ has some really cool things on it
OzJosh
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For his glory not my name sake Smile
Magic is the ability to lie and people to love you for it and want you to lie to them again and again and again
www.redtopbox.com.au
^^^^^ has some really cool things on it
Mike Ince
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1 Corinthians 2:11. Your thoughts are safe from telepathists. "Who knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of that man within him? Even so, the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God."

So no one can eavesdrop into your mind, but you can sometimes give your thoughts away by your actions. Of course, claiming to read body language and such is still untrue in most cases (Patrick Redford's Prevaricator aside). Some mentalists choose claims that seen less harmful to the audience. Still, if you fib to an audience before sharing the gospel, you might experience distrust from them. The Santa Clause Effect. Thankfully, the gospel has that ring of truth about it.

I struggle with doing mentalism as a Christian, but I tell my audiences I use magic, suggestion, other psychological mind games, and sometimes I just lie. I'm honest about my lying.That's better than some of the self-proclaimed faith healers you might see.
The secret of deception is in making the truth seem ridiculous.
OzJosh
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I like to say things like, this is just phycology but in a form of entertainment.
not that I do much of it, I am still trying to figure it all out.
granted I also say that about my card tricks because it's funny as well.
Magic is the ability to lie and people to love you for it and want you to lie to them again and again and again
www.redtopbox.com.au
^^^^^ has some really cool things on it
katyannmarie
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The example of being taken for gods makes my point. They didn't make any disclaimers before the miracle, but cleared up misunderstandings afterwards. They also weren't doing magic tricks. If they were, they would have billed themselves as magicians and no one would have mistaken them for gods.
Mike Ince
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Quote:
On Feb 23, 2015, katyannmarie wrote:
...They also weren't doing magic tricks. If they were, they would have billed themselves as magicians and no one would have mistaken them for gods.


Somehow even when I bill myself as an entertainer there are people who think I have supernatural abilities I don't actually possess. Some routines are so strong, they imply that there's no answer except a strange, hidden power within me. I wish I could say that billing oneself as a magician clears up the matter for every viewer, but in my case it hasn't. I stop my own pulse (and might use suggestion to stop someone else's without coming near them), I tell people thoughts they haven't written down, I remotely control someone else's body while her eyes are closed, people feel me touch them from far away, and I influence and predict people's behavior. It's all a show, not a bit of it is real, but it feels real to people. I don't present these things in a dark, creepy way, though I could. Even if I say I'm a trickster, people see these convincing feats that suggest otherwise.

Regardless of what you claim verbally, your effects can speak louder. That's something to think about.
The secret of deception is in making the truth seem ridiculous.
harris
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During programs I make reference to slight of Gand and mind.
Only God can do the supernatural.

At some gigs I make reference to Simon the sorcerer who tried to buy the Apostles gifts
Peter and the others did mince words in response.

Harris Aka Dr. Laugh
Still too old to know it all
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com
music, magic and marvelous toys
http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u
Mike Ince
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I think the greatest power Satan has is that of lying. I've met both Christians and non-believers who think psychics have aupernatural abilities they don't actually possess. The population, Christian and otherwise, is unaware of skills like cold reading.

If you present yourself as a psychic, you don't have to have powers. You only have to convince the frail sons of Adam that you have powers.

You don't have to communicate with the dead to draw people to yourself and away from God. You only have to convince people who are willing to believe you that you're a medium.

Simon wasn't a real sorcerer. I'm persuaded that no one ever has been. Just because it wasn't real doesn't mean it was morally inert. Drawing people away from God to seek advice from some oracle is evil regardless of the legitimacy of the oracle. When this subject gets touchy for me is when we examine the motives sorcerers have for convincing people that they're real. The desire to feel superior, the desire to be respected and maybe feared, and feeding people's desires to see miracles that God has not ordained are things that can hit too close to home for many magicians. It's a quandary, and if you're obsessive like me it can lead to anxiety.
The secret of deception is in making the truth seem ridiculous.
OzJosh
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On Feb 23, 2015, katyannmarie wrote:
The example of being taken for gods makes my point. They didn't make any disclaimers before the miracle, but cleared up misunderstandings afterwards. They also weren't doing magic tricks. If they were, they would have billed themselves as magicians and no one would have mistaken them for gods.


Valid point I do believe
Magic is the ability to lie and people to love you for it and want you to lie to them again and again and again
www.redtopbox.com.au
^^^^^ has some really cool things on it
Zlwin Chew
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When asked to explain Magic, I'd always say, "Magic is science unexplained."
Ed_Millis
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If you're going to do this, you've got to make some decisions.

Either you're going to deliver a performance stripped of every bit of mystery and suspense, or you're going to perform routines that go beyond the edge of someone's understanding.

If anything you do can be perceived by someone somewhere as "you have to possess supernatural abilities to do that", then you either carefully vet your audience and send all the superstitious ones home, or you let it fly and make them deal with whatever is left to rattle around in their minds.

(I'm presuming a show for the general public and advertised only as entertainment.)

You must go to God and work this out. And then trust Him to guide you should you begin to cross a line.

For me, I intend to do what I can to pop fuses and blow mental circuits. I'm satisfied that anything I do will be perceived as entertainment only, served with heaping loads of mystery, by all but the most superstitious. And I am no more responsible for those people and their irrational fears than they are for any issues I have. I will do nothing to make them believe I possess supernatural or paranormal abilities; I can't help it if they are naturally inclined that way.

Ed
OzJosh
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I was watching the demo for bandwidth and I got an amazing revelation

we are performers, entertainers.
Magic as a whole messes with peoples minds, they see the impossible become possible.
we know it's fake, they know it's fake, we know that they know that we know it's fake.
but it doesn't take away from the effect and what was done.

we work with smart people now, the internet will destroy our industry if we don't keep ahead of it (blast those dam you tube brats)

there is no difference from the theory of all magic.
be is a card trick, silk trick, thump tips even the saw a person in half thing to mentalism and bending of spoons and what have you.

we can't get religiously caught up in what is right and wrong, it's an industry of deception and secrets.

the CIA and FBI have theirs, we have a history of them dating as old as doctors and builders.

if you need to justify any form of magic, clearly you shouldn't be doing it.
if you feel right about it and don't need to justify what you do in the forms of magic you do.... awesome.

I for one feel I don't need to justify myself for the sake of religion.
my relationship with God and man isn't dictated by this art but dictated by my heart.

if I blow a persons mind with any trick, my job as an entertainer is done, if I fail to use that as a way to talk about God in any form, as a christian I have failed the great commission calling to all that follow Christ.
Magic is the ability to lie and people to love you for it and want you to lie to them again and again and again
www.redtopbox.com.au
^^^^^ has some really cool things on it
Russo
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Romans 12:6
Ed_Millis
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Quote:
if I fail to use that as a way to talk about God in any form, as a christian I have failed the great commission calling to all that follow Christ

That totally depends on the situation. If I'm hired to do a birthday party or a library show, using that as a platform to preach when that's not expected is dishonest. In a spur of the moment close-up situation, that might be a very good idea.
Quote:
Romans 12:6

Out of context. I don't see sleight of hand or entertaining with clever deceit among the spiritual gifts. And vs 5 indicates he's talking about how we minister to each other within the body.

Some people have difficulty knowing they can draw a person or a crowd and not preaching. Others have difficulty with magic as entertainment being based in lying to the audience. And there's some who struggle to reconcile the illusion of super-normal or even supernatural powers presented to those who don't have the maturity to simply enjoy it as a mysterious illusion.

Get alone with Jesus and work these things out. If you must, call on a mature trusted advisor. Don't do things that twist your conscience in a knot. And don't impose your calling or limitations on every other Christian. This is between me and God first, then my church and earthly families. And likewise for all y'all. "Let the peace of God rule (be your umpire)".

Ed
OzJosh
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Ed

I suspect that was implied and common sense dictated the obvious.
but thank you for pointing that out and clearing that up.

this is a gift from God in what we do, it's also a calling.
as all gifts are from God and this is a gift and talent that we can use for God.

so not really out of context
Magic is the ability to lie and people to love you for it and want you to lie to them again and again and again
www.redtopbox.com.au
^^^^^ has some really cool things on it
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