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TSW Regular user Ohio, USA 108 Posts |
ZachDavenport,
While I found the incident very illuminating, I'm not sure everyone else here would share in my 'ah-ha' moment; some here might even find it boring. If you however you're interested PM me and I'll relay all the details. |
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Dougini Inner circle The Beautiful State Of Maine 7130 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 19, 2014, Mad0hatter wrote: Well. I must be a poor performer. That happened to me, a NUMBER of times! I must be an old hack now. Maybe it's time to give it up... Doug |
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Tim Cavendish Inner circle 1404 Posts |
Let's talk about focus.
While Penn talks about an architectural principle of illusion, Teller is removing the front facade from the apparatus and reveals what appears to be the woman's butt hanging out the bottom of the illusion. Storytellers are encouraged to show, not tell -- why? Because showing is stronger than telling. Here, Teller's action of showing takes the viewer's focus and what Penn tells doesn't register with any strength. Further, what Teller is showing has its focus on the body hanging out beyond the profile of the illusion, not on an architecture of containment. The architectural principle, although discussed in the open, passes unnoticed because there is something more compelling on which to focus. Some here have heard of a performance art called magic. In that art, a magician can openly place a card under a beer glass -- in plain view -- and have it completely fail to register with the audience! Yes, it is true! This is accomplished by placing the focus on another more compelling action performed at the same time, such as spreading a deck of cards on the table. Penn and Teller have some familiarity with this principle of focus management and are applying it here. When Penn talks about the architectural principle, he's blowing on a dog whistle that only magicians will hear. |
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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts |
If anyone here has ever had a performance fall flat, and there is a good chance it was because of Penn and Teller please post it here.
Reality is a real killjoy.
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magicwatcher2005 Elite user Washington state 446 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 23, 2014, TSW wrote: I don't know if you're obtuse, or just overly argumentative like lunatik (who certainly lives up to his mis-spelled name). ANY venue would eject some jerk-off who was outside approaching customers as they entered or left. It has nothing to do with exposure - especially in my case, since I perform fully scripted routines, rather than the latest Youtube-level card tricks lunatik is so concerned about. So some mentally-challenged guy standing outside my performance venue offering to "expose" my "tricks" would have the exact same impact as standing outside a theatrical performance of Peter Pan shouting "Hey everybody, that little guy can't really fly! They have super-thin wires that hold him up!" My response to lunatik (and you, TSW) is that I am not even remotely afraid of his fantasy "threat" of standing outside one of my performances and exposing my "secrets", because the audience already knows my biggest "secret" - I'm entertaining and funny, and they laughed their axes off. So what's lunatik gonna tell them, "The goose is just a puppet and he can't really write with his beak - the guy holding him was secretly doing the writing!"?... or "He secretly loaded that signed bill into the lemon when you weren't looking!"? Oh my god, the horror of it all! BUT - and this is more for lunatik than you - I hereby challenge him to follow through with this "threat" for ANY performer, at ANY venue ANYWHERE - and have a friend video it for Youtube. He won't, because even though he claims he would he hasn't got the guts. But he certainly can prove me wrong with some simple video. Most importantly, as others have already explained, Penn and Teller didn't "expose" anything with their Sawing routine that ANY decent magician would think needs "protecting". which I guess explains why the two of you are so concerned. . |
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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts |
Ok that is a bit harsh. Based just on this discussion you are saying they are bad magicians. I don't think it is exposure of something that matters, but that is just a rude comment.
Reality is a real killjoy.
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magicwatcher2005 Elite user Washington state 446 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 24, 2014, ZachDavenport wrote: I'm not saying they're bad magicians, they are saying they're bad magicians. I'm simply reading between their lines and clarifying the point. Ask any great magician - Mac, Lance, DC, whomever - if he's against exposure and he'll absolutely say he is. Now ask him if he has ever feared his success would be ruined by Penn and Teller or Youtube exposure videos and when he's done laughing he'll say "No." Good performers don't rely on "secrets" to entertain their audiences, they rely on their theatrical skills, engaging personalities, and performing talent. Others in this very thread have given voice to one universal truth - you only need fear exposure if the bare-bones secret is all you've got going for you... which is the hallmark of a bad magician. Don't shoot the messenger. If it walks like a chicken and [especially] SQUAWKS like a chicken, it's probably a chicken. . |
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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts |
I'm sorry, but their opinion on YouTube exposure, and their ability to perform magic well are 2 different things entirely. If your opinion is that those who think YouTube exposure is wrong are clearly bad magicians, then you think that many well respected magicians and mentalists are terrible magicians.
Reality is a real killjoy.
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magicwatcher2005 Elite user Washington state 446 Posts |
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On Aug 25, 2014, ZachDavenport wrote: Not what I said, and not at all what I meant. If, after reading what I wrote, you conclude that my opinion is "those who think YouTube exposure is wrong are clearly bad magicians" then you need put a lot more work into your reading comprehension skills. . |
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silvercup Loyal user 223 Posts |
It's becoming a clear fact that magicians prefer video to books to learn simply because they are unable to read. How this forum persists confuses me daily.
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MeetMagicMike Inner circle Gainesville Fl 3501 Posts |
Silvercup wrote:
Quote:
It's becoming a clear fact that magicians prefer video to books to learn simply because they are unable to read. How this forum persists confuses me daily. Most of us have probably been guilty of glossing over a post and thinking we knew what the poster was saying and getting it a bit wrong. There are actually several conversations going on in this thread. It's always a good idea to quote the relevant thing you are responding too. No only does it make things clearer but it makes it really obvious whether you are actually addressing the points brought up or not. |
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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 25, 2014, magicwatcher2005 wrote: OK I reread the post, and I see that you said that they are bad magicians because they think the Penn and Teller thing was wrong. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, but it still is a little irrational for you to say that because they think it is wrong they are bad magicians. Even if they are (and I have never seen either of them perform, so I have no idea) you should not call people bad magicians, unless you have seen them perform and can offer them some suggestions.
Reality is a real killjoy.
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lunatik Inner circle 3222 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 24, 2014, magicwatcher2005 wrote: Visit colorado and I'd be happy to oblige. But if you're just a kids performer with a Barney puppet, I may let you slide by.
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
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lunatik Inner circle 3222 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 24, 2014, Dougini wrote: Magicwatcher, what do you say to doug here, is he just a poor performer? or has he found audience members that are just plain curious and were able to youtube the secret which was out of his control? Surely you can't insinuate that every person that googles/youtubes an explanation had a poor performer.
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
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MeetMagicMike Inner circle Gainesville Fl 3501 Posts |
I know that questions is directed at Magicwatcher but let just point out that Dougini doesn't actually say how he handled the situation. Did it really ruin his set? Most magician's perform routines with multiple phases that cancel each other out.
Even before the internet I ran into people who knew the double lift but I still did ambitious card for them and got the usual reaction from the crowd because the double lift was only a small part of the routine. When I was somewhat new into magic I was completely fooled by Daryl doing his rope routine even though I knew Profs Nightmare. He did the same counting move I did but had better technique and it totally fooled me. |
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts |
I saw P&T live, recently, and have a few thoughts on the matter.
Firstly, there is a huge amount of disrespect being thrown at two fine magicians who think profoundly about how they approach magic. It has been said that what separates craft from art is not relative skill, but rather the leap of imagination. Here are two superb performers, P&T, who certainly do magic as art. And here, some deeply unimaginative people are slagging them off, without addressing any of the straightforward rebuttals which have been clearly outlined over four pages. Penn & Teller exemplify the approach as outlined in 'Our Magic', a book by two hugely successful magicians of an earlier generation. This book, incidentally, was intended for the general public's consumption. It makes the point that the more audiences are informed of the sorts of ruses magicians use, the more engaged and impressed they are when those ruses are successfully carried out in a theatrically pleasing way. To wit, in the show I saw, P&T did a really lovely piece, (which would enrage some here beyond all reason,) where Teller essentially does a manipulation act to music. This is repeated, with Penn giving commentary as Teller turns to expose the angles. [Don't die on me now, lunatik, you'll get over it.] Then Teller does it again, from the right angle, and there is an unexpected ending which is not explained. Now, Jonathan Townsend was trying to tease out an important point earlier in this thread, relating to the comparative difficulty of retaining information after a surprise, which works in this instance. Also, as in their 'exposed' Cups and Balls, there is actually a layer of obfuscation being spread during the rather confusing commentary. There is simply too much to see, for a layman, to remember exactly the choreography after the fact. Add to that the surprise ending, which is not explained, and the whole thing works as artful magic. Not only that, but the audience has been educated as to the sheer complexity of genuine sleight of hand manipulation. I work on sleight of hand a lot, and yet a good, well choreographed manipulation act can fool me in a pleasing way, because the methods have been well executed, and the routine so structured, that my attention has always been directed to the right place at the right time. Anyway, I find great irony in two wonderful entertainers being slated and mocked for being 'disrespectful'. I know who I respect, in this instance. |
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Dougini Inner circle The Beautiful State Of Maine 7130 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 25, 2014, MeetMagicMike wrote: Yeah. This last time, I just left. The friend who invited me over, had a place full of people. His roommate decided to fire up the big 60" screen and pull up Youtube. There was the masked moron exposing two of my effects I just did. The laughter shrunk me. I kept my composure, thanked everyone and left. I will NEVER do magic for them again. EVER! It was MOST humiliating! I am not a pro today. I just have fun. After forty years of this, I am pretty good at some things. I'm 58, and have NO tolerance for rudeness or this kind of bull****. It was done to embarrass me. The roommate is an egomaniac. Has to be the guy "on top". You'll run into this type eventually. And THIS guy has an extensive knowledge of magic principles. You ain't gettin' ANYTHING by this guy...So, the best solution is to leave... Doug |
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MeetMagicMike Inner circle Gainesville Fl 3501 Posts |
Dougini - that was awful behavior by your "friend". It is an argument against the type of exposure for the sake of exposure that I and MagicWatcher2005 have both denounced.
I probably would have left too but I kind of wonder if there might have been a better way to handle it. What if you laughed right along with them and talked openly about what magic is and is not and how technology has affected modern magicians? The internet isn't a fad so we magician's had better learn to be entertaining in a world with Google. As a matter of fact we might all benefit from asking ourselves how Penn and Teller would have handled that very situation. In a way they already did this with their see through cups and balls. Tomsk192 - +++ Great post. Thanks for your thoughts and insight. |
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts |
Thank you, MeetMagicMike and magicwatcher2005, for offering cogent, well thought out arguments and for not resorting to silliness. I didn't need to address the key points because you have both done that admirably.
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lunatik Inner circle 3222 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 26, 2014, tomsk192 wrote: *croaks*
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
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