Hey everyone,

I am mainly a card guy. But over the past couple of months I have being looking into the world of coin magic. And along the way - one idea jumped out as being particularly devious and clever.

It is an idea that Geoff Latta came up with. During a 'coins across' routine - you visibly throw one coin into the other hand - and then immediately show that the coin didn't really jump across, by immediately showing the coin back in the other hand.

I first saw the idea in a Chris Kenner effect called O.O.S.P.C.A. You can see the phase here:

http://youtu.be/DM6zuzlaUVA?t=3m11s

Kenner credits the idea to Geoff Latta - and here is the Latta reference which I found elsewhere on this forum.

"The concept of throwing a coin across, but then showing it did not go was indeed published by Geoff Latta in “Four Coins Across” Tannen’s Magic Manuscript (Sept./Oct. issue 1987). During one of the NYC Coin Magic Seminars I asked Geoff to perform this routine - the actual video performance of it is in the Bonus Section of the NYC Coin Magic Seminar Vol. 1 DVD."

I believe that Kenner uses this idea in his 'Three Fly' effect - which is interesting since it is his favourite part of the routine (from what I have heard). Yet it is the part that a lot of variations get rid of.

I really love this bluff move. It really makes me smile. I love the way that being one ahead sets you up for that “bonus” piece of magic.

Anyway - it seems to me that this idea has spread throughout coin magic in recent years - and now lots of coin magicians make use of it.

Now - I am not very knowledgeable about coin magic (I'm a card guy). So - I was wondering if I could hear some suggestions as to which uses of this concept are worth checking out? Also - does anyone know any EASY routines that make use of it? Since - my coin skills are not so hot at the moment. As such - I would be interested in learning an easy routine which also makes use of this sneaky piece of thinking.

Kudos to Geoff Latta for coming up with such a wonderful idea. I am sure many others like this idea as much as I do.

And for the coin guys out there - please help a card guy out with some trick suggestions which might be worth checking out.

Thanks!

Check out David Roth's Super Clean Coins Across:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NNH4UpBtnE
and Coin One by Homer Liwag:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKb2hNiGsFk


Now Coin One has the jump back concept, but is way to hard for a beginner. However, if you learn Roth's routine, you will find it very easy to incorporate that move into it using a classic palm. I have a composite routine which has the better angles of Roth's but doesn't require a table, so uses some stuff of Liwag's.

Plus everyone should learn Roth's routine - it really is super clean and is a lesson in routine construction. It requires a sh**l though.

Now that above reply is to your original question, but since you also asked for general advice, here goes:

Get Bobo's.
Go on coinvanish.com to help you with classic palm in the secret section.
Just learn classic, finger and thumb palm from Bobo's chapter 1
Then bobo and utility switch from chapter 2.
Then french drop (google "french drop sucks" for more tips on this), classic vanish, drop vanish, the retention vanish etc.
Skim read everything else too, but just focus on the stuff mentioned above. Then I would skim through most of it straight to the coins across and classics section and read these. These are the performance pieces you will be able to do once you master the above moves, which will inspire you to learn them. I wish I had read those chapters earlier. Don't overlook tricks using handkerchiefs either - expansion of texture is one of the finest tricks ever created.

^all of that above stuff is free. Bobo is online as a free pdf.
Also invest in a coin magic dvd - look on the forum for opinions but most people say Ammar's, Roth's or Stone's dvds. Coinvanish.com has reviews on all of these.
All of this stuff will give you plenty to learn for a year at least. Well, indefinitely really, but I'm advising that you don't look elsewhere too much in your first year as you'll be overwhelmed!

Good luck with coins - they are awesome

I know a lot of magicians are enamoured with the phase of three fly where a coin is visibly tossed from one hand to another, and a split second later the magician shows that the coin was never tossed. I have never liked this phase. I think it reveals that you have an extra coin. It's is commonly used to get into position for the last "fly". However, I came up with what I feel is a better and more logical solution for my own Retro Fly from volume one of the NYCMS DVD series (I have posted the performance on this forum in the past for those who want to check it out). And just because, I also don't like the phase after the first fly when the magician taps the two coins with the one that traveled, making a substitution to get ahead in the process. There is a discrepancy, and it always looks obvious to me. Just take a look at every clip of someone using this sequence, and if you don't let yourself blink at the crucial point you will see the switch almost every time. Just because you get away with it, doesn't mean that it's good. You see the switch 99 times out of 100, even in clips where the "pros" are doing it. I know that is off topic, but I just had to vent.
Returning to the initial question, the reappearance of the just tossed coin may be an initial surprise but in my mind it reveals the method and if anyone thinks about it, they will come to the conclusion that there was an extra coin. Ok, how many of you don't agree?

100% agreement!

I completely agree with your Michael, I really don't understand how this phase got so popular, are we the only ones who see that the king is holding four coins? (and is naked for some reason)

I love the concept and play of this move, especially as done by Homer Liwag in his Coin One, it really looks like magic. As first put by Latta, I think it plays OK, like in Kenner's 3 Fly because of the overall pace of the effect. It goes by so fast as per the patter, most specs don't have time to come to any conclusion on it except what it appears to be - somewhat and or absolutely impossible.

I don't think it's so bothersome to people or particularly makes them think anything except they mostly just can't believe what they just saw. I guess if you keep thinking about something, you might come up with an idea as to it (right or wrong, it don't much matter), but that would probably happen for a ton of effects. I think the cleanup at the end of the effect, well, "cleans it up" enough to leave it mostly a magical experience, especially for our greatest audience - laymen. But I do understand opinions here and respect the alternative views.

Also not a fan of this move. It adds needless confusion to the routine.

I couldn't agree with you more Dr Rubinstein. And this is the very reason that I am turned off by ALMOST all 3 Fly rountines. Any routines that employ the moves you described, are only going to get the, "that was slick", type reactions, as opposed to the blown away reactions from a spec who feels they just witnessed real magic. That is ofcourse, unless they are just to nice to say different.

I prefer more, some routines, in which the starting hand remains closed and the recieving hand still takes advantage of the visual fingertips productions. Im pretty sure this is the case in your Retro Fly routine, which I happen to like.. Correct me if I am wrong though, as I may have this routine confused.

Most 3 Fly routines, simply remind me of
clever juggling with coins.

-Richie TwoTime

I added the jump back idea to David Roth's coins across routine around twenty years ago and favorable spectator reactions have caused me to leave it in for all these years. This probably works because at the beginning of the routine, the spectators are convinced that there are only four coins.

If You using A 4 TH.Coin Yea I think it 100% tips it That more then 3 coins Are in play! but If the vanish of The jumped Back coin Is Done with a shell or L.H.S. So the vanish is clean and they Can see There are only 3 coins in play! As long as you can Cleanly Show afterwards That there No Extra Coins in Play I thanks it works! In doing it for Layman And Having the 3 Th.coin CLEANLY Jump back I have found It's The Part they like best!

" Most 3 Fly routines, simply remind me of clever juggling with coins." Yea they Do!!! But if it's Broken You Fix it! You don't just throw it away! If you did that with everything that was Broken Some times There would not be Much Left!

Ok that's My 2 cents!

There are two approaches to this idea. One is where the coin is "placed" from one hand into the other and then jumps back. The other is where the coin is "tossed" from one hand into the other and then jumps back. The effect of each is slightly different.

There is a guy who put a visible toss - jumpback on video, was on YouTube. It was discussed recently with a link. He tosses a coin from the fingertips of one hand to the fingertips of the other. Impressive.

Geoff used it in a one coin routine and some retention practice exercises.

The joke can backfire if you successfully train the audience to watch for jumpy actions. On the "too perfect" side it's almost like openly sleeving a coin and then taking it out of your pocket on the other side of your jacket.
Remember that they are not always paying attention and not going to follow you all the time and all the way through your routine. They might just be waiting for a quiet moment to say hello to someone else in the audience or have a few minutes to spare before they need to make a call.

Hi Ray Yea myself I always Place! Like it was a Joke! Some thing like " Watch the last Coin as it jumps Across
( Then you place it in the outer Hand) OK-Ok I was just kidding! " Then the jump back!

Im with ya Mr. Neighbors! The majority of the 3 Fly routines I DO like, are accomplished with a gaff ;-) I don't own many gaffs currently, or id absolutely be on board with a gaffed version.

I like 3 Fly, but just when you can show the coins in a cleaner way.

Same goes for the jump back! If its displayed after clean, I think its great..

-Richie

Thanks man! I will have A coins across chapter In the next Hardbound book! And There will be A few one touch, some No touch 3 Fly Handlings, And 2 Backfire Handlings,In there! And only one of the one touch Handlings, Well be ungaffed! And I will try to Fix What I think is Broken About it! Agen My 2 cents!

It was just last week I was watching the Will Houston DVD and he performed the visible version Jonathan
talked about. He performs an abbreviated, stand up version of Coin One, called Coin 0.5. Worth taking a look at if you can.

Thanks Tom, there was a clip of Will Houston doing that coin item on YouTube. enjoy.

Http://salinasmagic.blogspot.com/2014/02......ton.html

I've seen that move by Will Houstoun and it looks delicious! Very well done and I love the fact that it's a Two Coin trick. Actually, I like the whole routine of it, very deliberately done and well worth learning as to the mechanics of it. Might play with this one myself.

I've seen Houstoun's work and he is quite brilliant and elegant. He is a closeup worker's dream. You should see his Shadow Coins, just beautiful magic, and he's awfully good at cards too, and everything else closeup. But his Two Coin trick with that visible jump back move, is one of those coin routines I pay a lot of homage to, like I did Justin Miller's Silver Dream and or the Sylvester Pitch Routine long ago now…Just a perfect coin routine, exceptionally magical, IMHO.