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vannma
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I do mental epic in my routine for teens or adults (not kids under 12 or so). Put here is how I present it: "How many of you have heard of fortune tellers, horoscopes, biorhythms, mediums and stuff like that? Well, you know it's all fake right? (you will get varying reactions). Well let me demonstrate it for you." I do mental epic and it usually blows then away. Then I say, "now as real as that may have seemed, it is fake! That's right, any of you can go to the local magic shop, or online and buy this for $40 (or what ever the going price is)." Usually I even hand out a advertisement from a big magic dealer showing the price and the effect information. I usually get a good reaction because they got what they came for (good magic that fools them) but they also leave with the truth. Further, I never divulge the method, even though someone almost always begs me to.... lol.
kah22
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It's not magic, it's trickery. Just tell your audience that you are going to fool them, trick them, that you are going to use psychology, misdirection, suggestion but all in good fun. Now do you think He would object if you said something like that at a wedding breakfast, a nursing home or at your local school. I guess He wouldn't mind
Russo
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Can this help ?? opening my program -using the Spot Card- I quote 2Corinth. 4:1-2 -the 'Living Bible' uses the words 'trick you' other Bibles uses the words Deception-etc. also say I am Not Simon-just use illusion to illustrate(like flannel board-etc) favorite Verses and Personal Witness(personal Witness brings home the message) It works (for me??) Ralph(russo)Rousseau
Ed_Millis
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First, are we talking about performing in a church or other ministry setting? Or in a non-ministry, non-spiritual setting? If I'm delivering a spiritual message to people who have come to hear from God, then yes I'm going to do all I can to make sure everyone knows I am somehow fooling them. And if they want to believe otherwise, then they will have to work very hard at it!

But when I'm performing as some style of magician, I am delivering the product that has been requested. I am fully in a character, and some of those characters completely believe what is happening is real.

This is where we also need to make a distinction between "mental magic" and "pure mentalism". Most magicians present mental magic, which are just tricks with a "mind angle". And in the flow of a typical magic show, the audience knows it's all tricks, even if they don't know how you accomplished the magic. Mentalism (and this has been circulating in Penny) is less about making the audience wonder what you did, and more about leaving the audience pondering who you are and the experience you've just given them.

Most magicians are only concerned with whether "mental magic" or "mentalism" fits their show and their character. Any real and honest Christian has two other things to consider:
-- how we affect other people (which is different in different settings), &
-- how are we being guided by our Lord and King Jesus (which is very individual)

Ed
Russo
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Ref. to your question?? church or other setting - I was talking(?) about starting my GOSPEL program with the Spot card-- We usually start our secular(clean of course)programs with the 'coin Pail' collecting a County(?) Entertainment TAX (L-O-L) Ralph
Ed_Millis
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Sorry, Ralph - that wasn't directed towards you in particular. It was more towards the OP and the general flow of the thread. I was mostly trying to separate the thoughts.

This topic comes up every now and again, and pretty soon it gets muddled to the point that no one remembers exactly what's being discussed - except doing "mentalism". Gospel and secular, magic tricks and "mind magic" and "mentalism" - it all gets thrown into the blender. Makes it hard to tell what is what.

As I see it, how it's approached depends on the setting, what I'm trying to do to the audience, and what God speaks to me as an individual. Sometimes I find it helpful to separate the individual thoughts around the topic and lay them all out to see things more clearly.

No finger-pointing intended - just trying to create some clarity.
And I might have missed!! :8>(

Ed
Mike Ince
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I've been thinking about what's recorded in Acts 8:9-24. Contrary to popular belief, sorcery appears NOT to always have involved drugs.

Simon was used to doing his tricks and being regarded as someone great. After he became a believer, his glory was knocked down, and God was being glorified through Philip and the other apostles while Simon looked on in amazement. He longed for the old days of being respected (maybe feared) for his convincing effects. I think there's something to glean from careful study of this passage with prayer. Let's dig into it and pray for enlightenment.
The secret of deception is in making the truth sound ridiculous.
Russo
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I always like to imagine that Simon repented and was used by our Lord - the Movie-"Golden Chalice" over dramatized Simons part.
Ed_Millis
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I think you can also look at Matt 6:1-6. The real issue wasn't that the activity was public, but *why* it was public. "To be seen of men" - to get their praise as all the reward your heart desires. Jesus did everything in public, but He always pleased the Father, because His heart wasn't set on the praise and rewards of men as the fulfillment of His soul's deepest desires.

As entertainers, we _do_ perform "to be seen of men" - they are the ones paying us, after all! :8>) But, it's nature of the job - the same as the priests in the OT and ministers in the NT had to do their jobs in the public eyes. I think the real question has to do with what satisfies the deepest desires of my heart. Do I want to please men? Or please God?

Simon is a good example: I don't think it was about drugs, but about controlling the affections of others. He wanted them to give him worship and glory, even after they left his "show" -- he wanted to capture their hearts for himself. There was a discussion on the Penny forum recently where we concluded that mentalism differs from magic in that the audience is free to resume their disbelief after a magic show, but a mentalist usually performs so the audience is still affected even after they leave.

And one more thing in my head: I think if a person cares this much about this, then God Himself is leading you through all of this, and it can only have a good outcome.

Ed
Terry Holley
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Quote:
On May 2, 2016, Mike Ince wrote:
I've been thinking about what's recorded in Acts 8:9-24. Contrary to popular belief, sorcery appears NOT to always have involved drugs.

Simon was used to doing his tricks and being regarded as someone great. After he became a believer, his glory was knocked down, and God was being glorified through Philip and the other apostles while Simon looked on in amazement. He longed for the old days of being respected (maybe feared) for his convincing effects. I think there's something to glean from careful study of this passage with prayer. Let's dig into it and pray for enlightenment.


There's no reason to infer from the passage that Simon was involved with drugs, as the Greek word is "mageuon" (practice magic). The Greek word that is usually translated "sorcery" and connected to drugs is "pharmakeia." "Pharmakeia" is not connected to Simon.

As I wrote in my book:

L. Acts 8:9-25—Simon the Sorcerer

1. Some popular authors, such as Hal Lindsey and C. Fred Dickason, argue that Simon the Sorcerer performed actual works of power through the agency of Satan.

2. However, nowhere in the account does it say that Simon had supernatural power. The passage simply states that Simon practiced magic (mageuo).

3. The Greek word (existimi), translated "bewitched" in the KJV, is more correctly translated "amazed" in the NIV. This is easily understood when one realizes that a form of the same Greek word is used in Acts 8:13 where Simon is said to have "wondered" (KJV) or have been "astonished" (NIV) when he saw the miracles and signs which were done by God through Philip and particularly when one understands that it is the same Greek word used in Acts 2:7 to describe the reaction of the God-fearing Jews to the manifestation of tongues on the day of Pentecost.

4. If Simon possessed a supernatural demonic power as many would have us believe, he would not have needed to attempt to purchase the Spirit’s power with money. It is evident that when he saw a power (supernatural) that was greater than his (natural), he wanted and needed to purchase it.

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
kah22
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Hi guys, I really don't understand you. We're talking about entertainment here not theology. I've yet to meet a person who gone to a 'magic show' and believed that the person performing was for real. How many of you feel the need to stand up and say Santa doesn't exsist?

Then again I might be missing the point

Kevin
Sardonicus
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They're talking about entertainment -and- theology. The Santa analogy doesn't work; the people in this forum maintain that evil and evil entities do exist, and because of those beliefs must maintain a clear disassociation from them. It can be a difficult mind-set to appreciate if you weren't raised in the culture or haven't been much exposed to it.

The Magic Café has quite a few instances of members being at some point accused of witchcraft, sorcery or the like. You might enjoy checking YouTube for videos from people that believe some magic is really supernatural. Search for "demon magic".

I sometimes don't know whether to laugh or cry.
"Books break the shackles of time. A book is proof that humans are capable of working magic." Carl Sagan, Cosmos
Ed_Millis
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On May 7, 2016, kah22 wrote:
Hi guys, I really don't understand you. We're talking about entertainment here not theology. I've yet to meet a person who gone to a 'magic show' and believed that the person performing was for real.

And that's why you don't understand us, Kevin. We *have* met those people - and some of us have ~been~ one of those people.

A Christian is one who must live in two different worlds at the same time - the Bible tells us we are IN this world, but not OF this world. As such, we feel the weight of making sure we do not present ourselves as being like those who do belong to this world and see no problem with blurring the lines. We can't control what another person wants to believe. But therein lies *our* responsibility to make sure we have done all we can to make sure it's their choice to believe whatever, and we have not persuaded them to step over a blurred line.

Ed
kah22
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Quote:
On May 8, 2016, Ed_Millis wrote:
Quote:
On May 7, 2016, kah22 wrote:
Hi guys, I really don't understand you. We're talking about entertainment here not theology. I've yet to meet a person who gone to a 'magic show' and believed that the person performing was for real.

And that's why you don't understand us, Kevin. We *have* met those people - and some of us have ~been~ one of those people.

A Christian is one who must live in two different worlds at the same time - the Bible tells us we are IN this world, but not OF this world. As such, we feel the weight of making sure we do not present ourselves as being like those who do belong to this world and see no problem with blurring the lines. We can't control what another person wants to believe. But therein lies *our* responsibility to make sure we have done all we can to make sure it's their choice to believe whatever, and we have not persuaded them to step over a blurred line.
I in no way want to challenge your faith. However take Derren Brown as an example he is an acknowledged atheist and he starts all of his shows by clearly saying that he has no special powers that he will be using TRICKERY, NLP, HYPNOSIS, MAGIC and SHOWMANSHIP.

Is that not all you need to tell your audience?

However, what might be a legitimate objection would be the use of hypnosis for entertainment purposes. Has any of us the right to manipulate other people's minds and I imagine the same would go for NLP?

I would like your thoughts on that

Kevin
themagiciansapprentice
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I think you'll find that Christian magicians teach us to have a disclaimer - look at the work of Dua
ne Laflin
Have wand will travel! Performing children's magic in the UK for Winter 2014 and Spring 2015.
Terry Holley
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Quote:
On May 7, 2016, kah22 wrote:
Hi guys, I really don't understand you. We're talking about entertainment here not theology. I've yet to meet a person who gone to a 'magic show' and believed that the person performing was for real. How many of you feel the need to stand up and say Santa doesn't exsist?

Then again I might be missing the point

Kevin

Here is a link to s recently posted video in the "Good News" area of the Café. Just one example of people who believe that magic is "real." And take a look at the responses! If you aren't familiar with the controversy you have probably never worked in the field of gospel magic or any type of magic that intersects with certain groups of Christianity, other religions or people with superstitious beliefs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkZvYglefsU

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
takeachance
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Quote:
On May 17, 2016, Terry Holley wrote:
Quote:
On May 7, 2016, kah22 wrote:
Hi guys, I really don't understand you. We're talking about entertainment here not theology. I've yet to meet a person who gone to a 'magic show' and believed that the person performing was for real. How many of you feel the need to stand up and say Santa doesn't exsist?

Then again I might be missing the point

Kevin

Here is a link to s recently posted video in the "Good News" area of the Café. Just one example of people who believe that magic is "real." And take a look at the responses! If you aren't familiar with the controversy you have probably never worked in the field of gospel magic or any type of magic that intersects with certain groups of Christianity, other religions or people with superstitious beliefs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkZvYglefsU

Terry


But that is totally delusional and that person needs help. You can't be suggesting that magic entertainment needs to be censored because of unbalanced individuals who put up You Tube garbage like that. In fact this is my first and probably last visit to this section of the Café, frightening to say the least.
Signor Blitz
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Quote:
On May 22, 2016, takeachance wrote:
Quote:
On May 17, 2016, Terry Holley wrote:
Quote:
On May 7, 2016, kah22 wrote:
Hi guys, I really don't understand you. We're talking about entertainment here not theology. I've yet to meet a person who gone to a 'magic show' and believed that the person performing was for real. How many of you feel the need to stand up and say Santa doesn't exsist?

Then again I might be missing the point

Kevin

Here is a link to s recently posted video in the "Good News" area of the Café. Just one example of people who believe that magic is "real." And take a look at the responses! If you aren't familiar with the controversy you have probably never worked in the field of gospel magic or any type of magic that intersects with certain groups of Christianity, other religions or people with superstitious beliefs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkZvYglefsU

Terry


But that is totally delusional and that person needs help. You can't be suggesting that magic entertainment needs to be censored because of unbalanced individuals who put up You Tube garbage like that. In fact this is my first and probably last visit to this section of the Café, frightening to say the least.


I love those "blitzkrieg" post that jump in as a first timer to a forum room with outrage to claim that they will never visit the room in question again - LOL Smile

It is as if we are to cower to their righteous indignation without dialogue - It is a Saul Alinsky approach for belittling and not intended for growth.

takeachance - you may walk away shaking your head, but this is a real mindset/worldview that those that work in the gospel marketplace must deal with in our efforts. Granted, not all are as extreme - those folks would never consider such or any program - BUT many mainline denominations have congregants that protest or question our humble, artistic efforts. It only take one to make some noise to cause problems and there are time when churches (out of convenience) to avoid any conflict (which only empowers the protesters ignorance) go in other directions that do not include such speakers and entertainers that incorporate illusions (magic tricks).

If your market is secular - then there is usually no problems - but in a faith-based market, there is a different level of accountability. I trust you understand as each market has its own specific nuances that differentiate it from another.

Take care and God bless.
David Thiel
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You have to see a mentalism performance as a "show." That's all it is...as long as the performer doesn't go out of his way to make it occult. I've been a full time mentalist for seven years...and a comedy magician for 20 years before that...and a Christ follower for 32 years.

Performers perform. They entertain. The hop onto the stage and bring the audience a period of wonder. The issue that separates mentalism from magic the inferred notion that mentalism just MIGHT be real. After all -- no one is going to seriously buy the idea that a performer walks on stage, chops his assistant into three pieces and then reassembles her, right?

But on the flipside: many people -- MANY -- take the whole idea of ESP, telepathy and all the other things that go bump in your mind seriously. After all...who hasn't had the eerie sense that they've been to a place before, or known what someone was going to say before they said it or known for CERTAIN that they were being lied to without completely understanding WHY they know it?

Mentalism is built -- at least partially -- on the delicious idea that MAYBE it's for real...and if HE can do it, maybe I can too.

This is where the whole proposition gets wiggly. IF you've performed mentalism well, you have been approached after the show by members of the audience who want to talk with you about how long you've had the "gift" -- or what psychic impressions you have about (fill in the blank.) And IF that has happened to you, then you also know the much-more-wiggly-and-oily temptation that pops out of their unabashed admiration. That thought: "I could tell these people anything and they would believe me." It's a genuinely horrific moment because looking into the eyes of a True Believer can create an absolute temptation IF YOU FORGET WHO YOUR ULTIMATE BOSS is.

It's not difficult to see how easily some people would be led...and how much many of them want to be led. The Scriptures teach at length about these people. So I would be a liar to say that I didn't wrestle with this for a very long time. After all: who is fool enough to risk offending the Father simply for a job?

I spoke at length about this with some other believing mentalists -- and there are quite a few of them. In the end I came up with something I say in every show: "What you've seen me do here today is something any one of you could do with the proper training and practice. It's a mixture of method, technique and inspiration. I thank you very much for sharing this time with me. May God bless you all." And every word is completely true...at least it is for my show.

It's not a disclaimer that says "Everything you've just seen me do here was a trick." That's absurd. Why do a show if your intent is to destroy everything you've just performed?

When I am hired to perform, I am not hired to sermonize or convert my audiences. I am hired to entertain them. Since I am a professional, working primarily in the corporate sector, that's what I do.

But what else does the Word say? A paraphrase: If one man views one day as holy then it's holy. If another man views all days as holy, then they are. If one man won't eat certain foods, then to him they are unholy. Another man has no problem eating anything? Go for it. That's what it's for.

If you can't reconcile performing mentalism, then don't do it.

I must say that I find the gentleness of this thread refreshing.

David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.


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Terry Holley
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Here's a photo of me performing mentalism in the Summer of 1971 at Cedar Point Amusement Park in Sandusky, OH, 45 years ago when I was 18 years old. Even though I gave a disclaimer, many people who viewed my over 600 shows felt that I had psychic abilities. Leaders and members of one church group that saw me perform thought that I was demonized. I still give a disclaimer.

Click here to view attached image.
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
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