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Kanawati Veteran user Australia 301 Posts |
I really like Tommy Wonder's teaching on conflict and am drawn towards magician in trouble type presentations. For example I do a rope routine using moves learnt from Richard Sanders' DVD where I tell the audience I will do the famous cut and restored rope trick but then everything goes wrong, the ends come off, the middle comes off, etc. Audiences seem to really enjoy it. I've now just started learning some ring and rope moves and am entertaining myself! But I don't want to just display a series of clever moves. I'm just wondering whether anyone has seen any ring and rope presentations that incorporate conflict or magician in trouble scenarios effectively? Alternatively, without giving away any presentation ideas or storyline, does anyone have any advice on what I could do to avoid looking like I'm just trying to display some skill?
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Kanawati Veteran user Australia 301 Posts |
Since postng my message I think I may have come up with a premise that could work for me! I was thinking about Fred Kaps' homing card performance and how the one card keeps popping up to foil and irritate him. I could start off by stating that I will tie the ends of the rope together so that it will be impossible to romove the ring from the rope but everytime I try to start tying the ends the ring either comes off or goes on before I have a chance....then I can end by finally tying the rope and doing a couple of more moves like having the rope ends come off, etc. Anyway...starting the get a basic strcture I can try and develop:)
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the fritz Special user 647 Posts |
Sounds good, Kanawati. I was thinking about your original question and it occurred to me that you could do the magician in trouble situation very easily with ring and rope because so many of the moves just depend on one minor twist of the rope here or there to make them work or not work. So you could start by doing the action the move is supposed to mimic, without actually doing the move and make it obvious it isn't working. Then you do the move, which looks like the very same action and for some reason, it now works. That could lend itself to some very funny moments, especially if you are performing a kid show. Adults laugh at much of the same stuff children laugh at (especially if they have kids themselves), it just needs to be reworked a little. Silly Billy's book has helped me a lot with this. Even if you don't perform for children, the book will help you as a magician.
Your example above is a good one about Fred Kaps. His performance of this is perfect, but the basic idea of a magician being irritated by it not working has roots in basic comedy that is just as funny for children as for adults. Another route you could go is to use Eugene Burger's premise in his book The Experience of Magic, about teaching a magic secret. Pat Page uses this in his simple ring and rope routine from his Secret Seminars (rope volume) tapes. He supposedly shows you how the ring gets on and off through a "tiny hole" in the rope. This is just obvious silliness but it nevertheless gives the moves and routine a reason for existing. The idea of showing someone how this magic trick works is inherently interesting and perfectly valid as a premise for presenting what is a essentially just a series of moves with a ring and rope. |
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Kanawati Veteran user Australia 301 Posts |
The fritz, thanks so much for the great ideas! I hadn't thought about the idea of mimicking a move without actually doing a move. Thanks also for pointing me to Pat Page and the idea of a mock explanation:)
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
I suggest you purchase "Sleight of Dave 2". David Williamson the famous humorous close-up magician - explains his version of a Ring and Rope Routine. The important clip included on the DVD is David Williamson performing the routine at an Abbott's Get-Together magic convention. Of course it is impossible to copy Dave Williamson's personality, but I believe you will see a very good example of showing a Ring and Rope routine to keep it interesting and entertaining. Study the performance and look beyond the silliness and antics and note the comments by Dave with/to the spectators.
He just does not involve one plot theme, but several at different points in the routine. Magician in trouble, conflict, and the magical moments. Note how he climaxes this simple trick to a feature presentation piece with several climaxes and showing a simple ending to make it a big climax without needing to add anything else but personality and the magic moment the audience should note. I looked on YouTube and could not find this clip online. If you apply your personality you may be able to use these techniques to your presentation. This is the best of the best in answering your original question, in my opinion. The best answer to your second question is simply using your personality to take your Ring and Rope Routine from a simple trick to a presentation piece. Skill is the secret of how the trick is done. They should never know how skillful you are and all the hard work you put into your magic tricks. Making the hard look easy is the secret to all successful people. Just a the swimming Champion Michael Phelps is known for his winning contest, no one really thinks about the 8 hours a day he spends in the pool everyday. You can't go wrong with the magic of David Williamson, all his material is original, easy with practice and workable for everyone. Sorry, but I do not know if it is included in his new multiple DVD offering, "Ridiculous". |
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Kanawati Veteran user Australia 301 Posts |
Hi Bill, Many thanks for your advice and for pointing me towards David Williamson! I do have his book Williamson's Wonders, and I do admire his style, but never invested in his DVDs...I will have to take a look into the DVDs.
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ROBERT BLAKE Inner circle 1472 Posts |
Https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6PjfO2SwAI david williamson ring and rope
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Kanawati Veteran user Australia 301 Posts |
Many thanks Robert!
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Kanawati Veteran user Australia 301 Posts |
Hi everyone, after letting this idea sit for a very, very long time I recently picked up my ring and rope again and tried to come up with a routine. Just thought I'd share where I'm at with this. Many thanks for all the previous advice! The moves were basically adapted from Richard Sanders' Fiber Optics Extended dvd. I really like the simplicity of David Williamson's routine and I have been heavily influenced by it. This has yet to make it into my act. Any and all criticism welcomed😊 Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3UMqIVlsmE
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
John, I like your ring and rope ideas, but it suffers from confusion in presentation and holding the rope so oddly or bunched up, as mentioned by Sealegs for your Color Changing Silk. This is where a DVD can help, as you are not as clean when making the knot. Daryl uses this short end of rope in his Rope Rouine as well. Don't know how to explain it any better. Sorry. It is good, and you are good, but something is missing, and I can't put my finger on it, outside of saying it confusing. This leaves the audience thinking, why is he holding the rope so oddly, after all it is only a long piece of rope.
Love the Vanishing Bird Cage, and again, you thinking outside the box idea. The cage with always flash when held with your right hand in that manner, as the area below your right wrist is open and exposed. If you can hold the cage in the right hand, by the lower rear corner during the vanish, it would be perfect if the cage does not spring apart, being it held together with elastic. If it will glide across the fingers, it will invisible. Very creative and good, but still needs work. You need to stick with your effects and routines and "finish" them. Go to a remote place like Australia, and work on them without any interference. LOL That was a joke. Your presentation and timing is refreshing and different, and you are likable to watch. Is there other magicians in Australia, that can help you with finishing these tricks. I think you suffer from not being able to see how the total effect looks to an onlooker. It may be because of your creative mind, seeing things differently and want to change and create something different, but you are losing the idea of the basic effect as seen by an audience. In other words, you are changing to much of basic trick, and it loses the magic trick being shown. If that makes sense. Again, this is not criticism but trying to explain what I see. Never have seen anyone so creative in magic and try to maintain the original effect. Very good on your part. Bill |
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
In the color change and the rope effect, you constantly have your arms and hands bent at the elbows and make fists. This looks like you are tense and may be part of what I am seeing. Be more relaxed with your body language. Not knowing you, I have nothing to compare with or see the real you. So I am just trying to find or suggest things that may be causing the conflict.
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Kanawati Veteran user Australia 301 Posts |
Bill, Many thanks!! The birdcage was a quick upload for you specifically because I know you know so much about them and their handling...I wanted you to see what I built using not so traditional materials:) For everyone else...I saw a magician do the vanishing birdcage on tv. Children joined him on stage, they placed their hands all over the cage and it just vanished. I might have been eight years old or so and it was the most magical thing I'd ever seen! I never forgot that feeling. I now think that magician may have been Harry Blackstone Jnr. So when I first started getting opportunities to perform, this was one of the first things I built over 10 years ago now. But I only preformed it a few times early on...It was a real snag trap!!! I'll leave it up for a little while but will delete it from my channel soon because the cage does flash!
I really appreciate your observations and advice about the ring and rope routine and your encouraging comments as well! This is another one I do want to eventually perform and I'll keep working on my handling/technique, better understand exactly what I want to convey to the audience and the clearest way that I might be able to present that. What you've said makes a lot of sense to me. Really grateful that you've taken the time to try and help me improve these routines. John |
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
Wow, John, I am getting old, I thought I was posting in the PM, and then I wondered how it got here. A real senior moment. Sorry.
As for the cage, it flashes because of that nasty old thing called gravity. |
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Kanawati Veteran user Australia 301 Posts |
No worries Bill:)
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BeThePlunk Special user West of Boston, East of Eden 887 Posts |
Hi, Kanawati -
First, I really like your ring and rope ideas. I've been dissatisfied trying to build my own routine and you have shown me a way forward. I can suggest that your presentation can be helped by having a story or a theme that holds it together. Instead of a series of things that happen with the props (what Eugene Burger calls "the story of the props"), is there a larger framework or notion or story that relates all the pieces? I think this will help with some of the "confusion" Bill identifies. It will also give your patter a forward-moving energy that leads to a finale. David |
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Kanawati Veteran user Australia 301 Posts |
Many thanks David and I really appreciate your advice. I'll explore the presentation angles you raised because one of my aims is to build the routine up to a clear finale and then have it all tie back to whatever the initial premise was at the start of the trick:)
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Sealegs Inner circle The UK, Portsmouth 2596 Posts |
I think its a brave but potentially useful choice to put your 'work in progress' up for critical appraisal. So well done to Kanawati for doing so.
Here's my 2 cents worth. The biggest room for immediate improvement that I can see is with the scripting. What you say is at least as important as what you do and how you do it. With that in mind this is going to sound harsh. Throughout this routine there's actually very little in the scripting that makes any sense or, in a straightforward way, relates to the actions and magic at hand. Contradictions, inconsistencies and muddied meanings are embedded within nearly every line of the routine's magical narrative. So while the audience can see that something magical is happening, it's never clear exactly what that is. We the audience are left trying to work out what we are supposed to believe is happening, or what is actually magically happening, and if it's happening in the way that is intended. Sorting out the scripting will make the magic clearer, which in turn will help to give the routine more shape, strengthen the magic, consolidate the moments of intended levity, and generally make the routine easier to follow. These improvements to the script will make the entire routine better all round.
Neal Austin
"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw |
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Kanawati Veteran user Australia 301 Posts |
Neal, many thanks for your advice. If you hadn't communicated with me via pm I might have thought your comments above a bit hard on my ego. But the advice you shared in the pm is gold and I really appreciate the concrete ideas and suggestions you shared to help me improve the routine! John
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Kanawati Veteran user Australia 301 Posts |
I've already thanked Neal (Sealegs) in my above post. But I have to thank him again! Via a pm, Neal sent me a "sample" script to help me with the routine. I know Neal is a professional performer, an experienced comedy writer and has written scripts for other magicians, but...this gesture has blown me away. There are many magicians that have really helped me over the years on the café. More specifically for the last couple of "works in progress" I want to just single out Dick Oslund (you are one generous man) and Bill Hegbli (you've really encouraged me to try and be more creative but also have given me a lot of constructive advice). Now I want to add Neal Austin to the list! The sample script is amazing. This is a real lesson in comedy writing and scripting. I'll be studying it very carefully and reworking the routine. I'm so glad I sought constructive criticism on these couple of routines. I have learnt so much from this…and there is so much more to learn!!! John
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
Hey John! The old cliche is still true: "When you are through learning, you are through!"
I've been following this thread, but, have abstained from writing because Neal and Bill have been doing such a great job of offering suggestions and constructive criticism, that I didn't consider that one more opinion was needed! I wish that more magicians would take the time, and, make the effort to do what you are doing. Best wishes! Dick
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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