Yes, and?

I could send you an application form for a Commercial Pilot's Licence........that doesn't mean to say that you'll one day be flying an Airbus A380, does it?

Suffice to say IF a company IS offering an unconditional '100% refund if not satisfied' policy, then surely they'd make it crystal clear; instead of resorting to potentially spurious wording.

Maybe someone from Penguin could inform us accordingly? A simple Yes or No would suffice.

Agree, worst thread ever.

You only stated that Penguin offers to 'figure out a way to make things right'- I further pointed out that on their return form, there is a check box for a refund to be credited to you. that's how they make things right.

If you really insist that someone from Penguin post that the refund is 100%, then so be it, I'm just telling you that I've never had any issue and have returned multiple items.

This is a pretty negative thread so I'd normally abandon it, but as my company was mentioned, I'd just like to clarify:

Merchant of Magic have a 1 year return policy, so you have 365 days to decide if you want to return an item.

I really have no interest in forcing a customer to keep a prop they wouldn't use, that's no way to keep a long term relationship. My job as a magic dealer is to help magicians build their acts, not fill up their magic drawers with unused items they never got around to returning. At the same time, I'd quite like to stay in business, so we give store credit so something else can be chosen instead. Its a huge overhead to run, but luckily we got big enough to take that hit in exchange for giving a better service.

Our returns policy is no holy grail, but it's an attempt to be fair and helpful to both customers and magic creators, stay commercially viable, and build relationships. It's designed so you can order a trick, then take your time to decide if you want to keep it or swap it for something else instead.
More details
http://www.magicshop.co.uk/a26/365_Day_R......nfo.html

Hope this helps
Dominic

P.s As for pre-orders: they work great for dealers, creators, and those customers that want an item the moment it's available. Nobody's arm is twisted... In fact we shy away from offering extra bonus deals on pre-orders for that exact reason. If a creator has made a new product, pre-order allows me to know roughly in advance how many to get in ready for launch day. Without it, we often won't have enough in stock as it's quite a skill to judge what items will fly, bomb, or just sell at a steady rate. Pre-order doesn't tend to increase sales, as a customer that pre-orders tends to not order again until the pre-order has been delivered.

I'd also like to point out that Penguin, E, Hocus-pocus etc etc all have great return policies too, we all want happy customers. That's how we grew over time. If you call a respected magic dealer they will generally bend over backwards to try to keep you happy. There's simply no point poisoning a long term relationship over a few dollars.

I've never ordered from you Dominic, but I will certainly think about it in the future. I appreciate the candor and insights. I think a lot of dealers lose sight of what it is to be a customer on the other side of the fence.

Speaking of bad magic tricks, has anyone heard an update on Ellusionist and if they will come out with those colored smoke cartridges for Pure Smoke that they promised a while ago? I have been patient, but I'm starting to think this is taking a while.

I wonder if I can return my PS still if they don't release this soon.

Okay Grandpa Grumpy, we were just trying to help you by providing you with our own personal experiences regarding Penguin returns, but I realize now that you weren't really interested in that, you just like to complain how nothing is as good as it was decades ago. But if you were to ever try actually using Penguin's return policy I think you would find that the information provided was not incorrect. But I can't imagine that even back in the good ol' days you were ever any fun to be around. Do you think you could turn down the negativity a few notches, just for holidays?

Back in the good ol' days, you bought the trick, you bought the secret, no refunds--ever.

There were a lot fewer tricks being offered for sale back then, though.

So, if some dealers will give you a refund if you are dissatisfied with a purchase, that's a good thing, but you can see how that sort of thing could get out of control.

1. Wrong. Ken Brooke, on EVERY advert and Instruction sheet, stated 100% money-back guarantee if not fully satisfied. So from 1967-1981, there was a dealer that did off refunds - always.

2. Amen to that. There were a lot better magicians around as well; including dealers that could actually dem!

Just to add that I'm not grumpy, I just have a different perspective than most others. In the same manner that I do celebrate Christmas - but for the RIGHT reasons. Not for the commercialised, present-receiving, over-indulgence and frivolity apparently enjoyed by most people these days. A brainwashed automaton I'm not.

OK, so Ken Brooke was the always-present exception to the rule.

I do disagree that there were a lot better magicians around back then. Dealers could demo their products because there were a lot fewer effects offered for sale back then. There's been an explosion of magic products in the last 20 years.

At every time and place, there are always those who pine for the "good ol' days." These longings, however, are mostly based on fantasy, not reality.

The best thing is to only use dealers who take pay pal then if you don't like the effect you can get your full monies back and not just a credit note within a certain time frame obviously

The fact that Dominic and others go the extra mile with 1 year credit note is very commendable

However I have never returned one magic effect ever , hence I have a few drawer fulls as never realised then you could do such a thing with magic as buying the secret

I completely agree with Mr. Reyes on his comment above....well said, sir.

Our customer experience at Penguin is the foundation which we base our entire business on. I'm certain that anyone who has ever purchased anything at Penguin, and experienced any sort of issue or dissatisfaction, will agree that we've always taken very good care of them.

Oh, the sheer irony of those words!

The majority of these posts have nothing to do with the topic. What a waste of time reading this.

Nothing ironic about them at all. I'm 65 and was around back then, in the 1960s and 1970s. I'm from New York and was a regular at Tannen's and even Flosso's (Al Flosso, that is, not his son). I was friends with Ronjo, who opened the only magic store in Suffolk County on Long Island in the late 1970s. I've met and known quite a number of famous magicians. I know what I'm talking about.

That is because a similar thread already exists

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......orum=109

😃

The irony comes Ray from the very point that you make.

Tannens - I only remember with utter contempt for stealing Ken Brooke's effects. The stress that it caused Ken contributed to his first stroke - hence I despise their very name to this day.

I've read that Al Flosso (and his Son, Jack, I believe?) could dem and sell.

Alan Alan, Pat Page, Ken Brooke, etc........could ALL dem, and sell.

Suffice to say that the problem with magic these days is that far too much product is being released. Most 'creations' are nothing more than often sub-standard copies of (often uncredited) previous ideas. Every single little brainfart is seemingly bombarding the community; the majority of which appear to be overly-hyped; and many with carefully edited demos via YouTube, etc.

I saw two Dealer Dems last year at my local club. The demonstrators were an utter embarrassment - a disgrace to magic if I'm brutally honest. The same club in Coventry had another dealer dem just a few weeks ago. Feedback from three guys in attendance said the self-same thing. The guy apparently cannot dem a magic trick to save his bleedin' life - yet comes onto this forum apparently trying to share his apparent knowledge, and purchasing recommendations, with PROFESSIONAL PERFORMERS!

- Would you seriously call this situation good for magic?

- Do you really think that overkill in product release, that we are now seeing far too frequently, is good for magic?

I care passionately about this art form. It's been my hobby, and career, for the best part of the last 36 years.

But I am not blinkered to see through this charade of magic 'dealers' and their obsession with selling as much new stuff as possible. It's to make money. Pure and simple. Nothing wrong with that per se - we all have to live. But please don't try and convince me that, for the vast majority of magic dealers, it isn't anything else but a profit-making exercise. Many know absolutely nothing about performance; succinctly borne out by their sloppy, embarrassing dealer dems.

Harry Robson, Dave Bonsall (and a few others) are an exception. They sell commercial magic that they've worked themselves at professional engagements over many, many years. Ask them for advice, and you will be getting advice from a professional performer. Not from some Johnny come lately who simply doesn't understand the basics relating to the performance aspect of this business; but is more intent with keeping his warehouse stocked with the latest pile of one-trick DVD's to inflict upon those with clearly more money than the sense that they were born with.