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ddamen Regular user Bay Area 140 Posts |
Very inspired by Tabary's style of routine when I first saw it 5 years ago. However having already incorporated those moves, I am desperately looking for new thinkers. Does anyone have any suggestions?
A lot of the stuff I have gone through is more of the same (single false knots, professors nightmare'ish, cut n restored, etc). I'm really looking for some visual, out of the box thinking It feels like this question is so much easier to answer with cards and coins |
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
You are correct, there has not been any new rope magic in something like a 100 years. Learning moves is not very magical, so I can only suggest you get out and show your skills with the intention of creating a routine that is entertaining to watching. Develop your people skills and have fun making others smile.
As far as out the box thinking, you will have to settle on buying individual tricks. Soma's Rope it up is certainly out of the box thinking. http://www.seomagic-usa.com/catalog/prod......s_id/780 Daryl's Rope routine is very entertaining and very different then the norm. He also has produced a complete multi DVD disc of just about all the rope magic ever created. Knotty Knot is a very different rope trick that is unusual and magical as well. |
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joseph Eternal Order Please ignore my 17407 Posts |
Tabary .. beautiful ...
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Einstein)...
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ddamen Regular user Bay Area 140 Posts |
Bill: I find learning new moves very magical. I did not think Soma's routine was out of the box, either in presentation or methods. Frankly, it felt more like a comedy bit than a magic routine. I think you are right that revisiting Daryl (and the classic books) is my only option.
Joseph: I saw that video earlier. Tabary's work is beautiful as always. He seems to have some new handlings, but I could be mistaken |
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bowers Inner circle Oakboro N.C. 7024 Posts |
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
Oh, I forgot to mention the most recent creative magic person that has developed around 5 or more books on his rope magic. George Sands was a polific rope magic magician. He passed away some years ago, and his brother put his collected works in a book. Sorry, but George lived before the Internet and wrote books. He was kind of stuck on the title as all were called Sansational Rope Magic. Without this person's contribution to rope maagic, I would imagine that Tabary and others would not have created their routines.
http://alansands.com/george-sands/george-sands-ropes |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Whilt there may be no new rop effect in a century (same could be said of coins) -- there are new ways of presenting these effects and making them relevant to a giving audience.
a "long=short" routine may be appropriate for some audiences and seem disrespectful in another. Having a reason for the rope may also be involved. Are you doing Clown, Theater or Virtual magic? i have several effects/routines in which multiple C/R effects are incidental to the major effect such as Necklacy and RemCut the start with a rope tied in a loop. Consider an extension cord that is too short for your needs -- a lit bulb on the ned when plugged in the wall. You cut the cord and the light goes out. You splice a two foot extension into the cord, and the light goes back on with anew, longer cord. I do a C/R of a metal chain with wire cutters to free up" a jewel for another "coin like" effect -- then restore the entire thing. When metal links scatter on the floor after the cut, few think of it being "an old rope effect." ONe area that is "new" compared with Sands and Tabary and others are ploys to show the cut ends of the rope separate an d apart before the restore. MagciIan (Ian Garrison) and I had several discussion on these approaches and techniques -- never published by him unfortunately, and not yet by me as I have no release on his ideas though he had a release on mine. The point is that magic can be as new or old as you choose to make it -- and may be new to any given audience. I personally believe that any magician should be able to entertain an audience for at least a half hour impromptu with a piece of rope. Many can perform some variation of PN. Can you cut the necessary lengths from a single length "on the fly?" The principle of Blocko can be used on many other object that can also blend into ring and Rope effects. Check out Columbini's DVDs - for $10 there are many new uses of old methods.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
Suggested study and reference rope magic, all on DVD.
Dary's Expert Rope Magic Made Easy, Volume 1, Learning The Ropes. http://www.daryl.net/product_detail.php?id=620 Daryl's Expert Rope Magic Made Easy Volume 2, Stringing You Along. http://www.daryl.net/product_detail.php?id=621 Daryl's Expert Rope Magic Made Easy, Volume 3, The Great white Rope. http://www.daryl.net/product_detail.php?id=622 All 3 volumes, Daryl's Expert Rope Magic Made Easy, three volume set. $79.95 http://www.daryl.net/product_detail.php?id=777 Don't forget the price match option on Dary's website. Three volume set sold at Penguin Magic for only $59.96, a great savings. http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S4538 |
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
Ddamen...
Reading your posts, I get the impression (perhaps, incorrectly) that you are looking for some new EFFECT(S) with rope. I started doing tricks with rope when I was 13, in 1945. I go back to Joe Ovette's "Repeat Knots", and Ralph Hull's "Fifteen Minutes With a Piece of Rope", Harlan Tarbell's Cut & Restored Rope", The (can't think of his name, momentarily) "Vishnu C&R Rope" Christopher's "Stretching a Rope", Harold Sterling's "Short & Long",Kellar's Wrist Tie, Hudson's Vanishing Knot, (and two or three "other" vanishing knots) Edward Victor's "C&R Rope", Leon Maguire's Improved handling of Mihlon Clayton's C&R method in Hugard's Monthly in the '40s (remarkably similar to Victor's) my "refinement" of Maguire's, Gen Grant's "One Two One", Bob Cervas' variation of Grant's One Two One, Dr. Daley's "KNOT",Ted Collin's "Panama C&R, Kellar's C&R, and later Karl Germaine's C&R. Ken Allen's "I'll Do It Again" C&R routine, Stewart James "Sefalaljia" plus his "Encyclopedia or Rope Tricks", George Sand's "Sandsational", AND MANY OTHER sources! Oh1 I knew George Sands, Harold Sterling, and Doc Tarbell,too. OOPS! I forgot Jack Chanin's mentoring! I even "take credit" for introducing "my" "Rope Mosquito" or "YOYO", which I taught to Bob Lewis, Gene Anderson, Dennis Loomis, Mary Mowder, and one or two others. Loomis included it in his KNOT dvd. Bob Carver started a revolution with The "Professor's Nightmare", in the '50s, with a little "help" from Gene Gordon. I didn't start using it for eleven years, because I didn't like the set up moves. Karrell Fox, realized that the set up move used by Gen Grant for his "50/50 C&R Rope, could be used with the PN, and showed it to me. I've used it since, along with Slydini's technique for prepping the PN with two cuts. Loomis and I developed a "bluff" restoration, before CONWAY'S. In short (too late!) the ONLY "new" (note quotation marks) rope effect that I can remember in the last 40 years is "LUCKY LOOPS" Neil Foster showed it to me, about 45 years ago, He got it from "Mr.Lucky" of Brazil, South America. I believe Abbott's still sells it. A loosely coiled length of rope is shown. The ends are tied together. As the rope is uncoiled, the loops in the rope appear tied together (like a chain). About 5 loops are shown tied together. The first knot is now untied, and another continuous loop is shown. As the "chain loops are untied, they are seen to he "loops" of rope, without knots. Rope is an ideal prop for magic, The EFFECTS that can he obtained include RESTORATION, PENETRATION, TRANSFORMATION, (STRETCHING, STIFFENING OR RIGIDITY,COLOR CHANGE) PRODUCTION, and VANISHING. KNOTS CAN BE TIED "WITHOUT THE ENDS", KNOTS CAN BE PRODUCED OR VANISHED, ROPE CAN BE USED IN ESCAPES, and ROPE CAN BE JUGGLED (e.g. my MOSQUITO). It's EFFECTS are mostly VISUAL. The rope itself is VISIBLE, It packs SMALL AND LIGHT. Rope tricks -- and rope effects, need no table, and are generally angle proof. Rope tricks are versatile--good for almost any audience, and can fit almost anywhere in an act. Rope, UNLIKE change bags and foo cans is RECOGNIABLE. Rope is relatively inexpensive. A few pieces of rope, a pack of "bikes", a few coins and a tin can, plus a few silks or handkerchiefs, and I can make a living! Here is the most important point that I think you are missing: THE PERFORMER AND HIS PRESENTATION IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE PROP. IMHO, I think that you are too concerned with looking for a new/different EFFECT. (See Fitzkee's "The Trick Brain" for his list of effects.) Example: Since the '40s, I've used Ovette's Repeat Knots, G.W. Hunter's Shoelace Knot, Chefalo's knot, and a number of different Cs&Rs. In '71, I added the Nightmare, I've NEVER had ANY AUDIENCE or AGENT complain that they were "OLD". (They were too busy laughing!)
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
Ddamen, here is a totally unique performer, and very different, looks at magic a totally different way then most, and he uses his own moves and routines.
Salvano, you might enjoy, and presents magic a little like Tabary. https://www.stevensmagic.com/shop/salvan......mvl-dvd/ |
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Nick W Special user 515 Posts |
I find ALL rope magic boring unless there is a great character behind it. In fact, ALL magic suffers from lack of character.
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
Well, you're entitled to your OPINION. Would you like to explain what you mean by "a great character"?
That IS a rather broad statement! Keep in mind that the PERFORMER is much more important than the PROP! I'm now retired after a lifetime performing magic for a living. MY audiences didn't find what I performed, boring! If they had, I wouldn't have had so many encores, standing ovations,and return engagements.
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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roningramii New user Van Buren, Arkansas 18 Posts |
Ddamen,
I am new to the Café, but have been doing rope for quite a while. I agree with the others that the old routines are still very relevant and fresh for the audience. Like you, though, sometimes when I am performing the same routines for the upteenhundredth time, they lose some of the "magic" for me. But only until I see the faces of the audience and then it all becomes fresh again. Try taking moves from several effects and developing your own routine (consider using the "other hand" to do the effect instead of your dominate hand that you were taught to use). This takes time and effort, but if you enjoy rope as much as I do, it will be well worth the effort and you may be the one to develop that "new" effect you are so earnestly looking for. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
Ron Ingramii
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ddamen Regular user Bay Area 140 Posts |
Bill: I have been revisiting the Daryl set, and already came across several gems I did not appreciate the first time around. I agree with you and roningramii that at the bare minimum, I should scavenge through every square millimeter of the popular classics (daryl, sands, abbott, tarbell,etc ). And GREAT call on Salvano. I placed an order for his rope DVD after seeing his "Glass Act" and billiard productions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dywJVJW_KIE Funsway: I ordered Columbini rope material. I will keep researching ways to show the ends cleanly before restoration. You gave me plenty of theory to think about Dick: The finale of Lucky loops sounds fresh. I wrote down all those performers to check out later, but your suggestion of "Trick Brain" was the glue that cemented this thread together for me. I never realized how millions of illusions could be lumped together into a few categories of effects. It helped me differentiate between learning new sleights vs new effects, and how to concretely create both. Richard Kaufman steered me onto Jean Merlin and Dr Sawa, so I have a manuscript and DVD respectively of those two performers coming. Thank you everyone for the type of priceless advice that only comes from seasoned performers. I have a lot of literature to read, a lot of work of to do |
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
Ddamen.....
I'm happy if I was able to stir your imagination, and provide an idea "or three" to help you do some serious research. I learned long ago that a good teacher's job is to MOTIVATE! Over the years, the most important thing for a student to realize is that I can't TEACH him anything! I can only help him LEARN, because LEARNING IS AN ACTIVE PROCESS! Sophocles said "it" a few millenia ago: "One learns by DOING the thing!" (Education is not "filling a bucket". Education is "lighting a fire". In 1946,I saw the late Roy Shrimplin's school assembly program. He did the late Joe Ovette's "Repeat Knots" (a "dollar" trick). A simple overhand knot tied in a 4' length of rope, and pulled tight, was "slid" down the rope,and then, pulled off! It was tossed into the audience. Then, he repeated it! Roy kindly showed me "the work". I have done it in almost every show since! A year or two later, the late Roy Mayer, was also doing it in his school program. He told me that he had done it (it was the second trick in the show.) at a military boarding school at an ocean side town in New Jersey, the previous year.The military school's curriculum was not "army" oriented. It was "navy" oriented. These high school kids KNEW their knots! They were sailors! When Roy's knot could be slid off the rope, they were stunned! Roy "got" a STANDING OVATION! It was the second trick, and he had 43 minutes to go. Fortunately, Roy was a seasoned pro. and he managed to maintain the tempo and finished to a great ovation. Interestingly enough, I am unable to "classify" the effect according to Dariel Fitakee's list of EFFECTS! Ovette's method (ultra simple) has now become fairly well known. I can't remember any magician that I've seen in YEARS, doing it. I think that too many who may know HOW it's DONE, don't know HOW to DO it so that it ENTERTAINS an audience! I spent many summers "off the road" managing a Boy Scout camp. I did Ovette's "little rope trick" a gezillion times at camp fires, and left the kids with their "mouths open"! The PERFORMER,and his PRESENTATTION, is always more important than the PROP (or EFFECT)!!! --"KEEP IT SIMPLE! MAKE IT FUN!"
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
One last thought, on learning rope magic or any magic trick. When a trick or routine becomes boring for the performer, this is an indication he has learned the moves and presentation, but not the performance of the moves. Now is the time to think of your audiences, and how you will present this miracle to them. What you will say (patter) and how you will hold the ropes for display.
It is just like a singer, writes a song, learns the words, memorizes them. Now the work begins, what highs, lows, pauses, tempo, and mood to inject at what points. After all they it is recorded. That is why some songs take several years to create. Now they go out on tour, the 1st few times they are excited, and happy from the audience responses. After tenth time, they are most likely thinking, not again. Some singers have popular songs they are requested to sing all their lives. Now here is the really hard part, they have to make it sound like that 1st time again, present it like that 1st time. Pull all the emotion and feelings they had that very 1st time. It is called by many as acting, and some of these emotions do return for the duration of the song. The same is true with the presentation of magic. That is why magic has to be performed, to get feedback from your audiences. Magic is nothing if it is not shared with the masses. It is presentation art, the must be shown before live audiences to make it into a miracle. |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Right on, Bill. I recall that when Olivier was asked is he ever tired of giving the same performance again and again, he responded with something like --
Every performance is new opportunity for me -- a new audience and I am now more experienced. They do not come to see me do what I did yesterday, but to make the story alive for them today. I owe it to the audience to make it original for them and me.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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doopyloop Regular user 150 Posts |
Quote:
On Jun 21, 2015, Bill Hegbli wrote: We have big argument on othe rplace in Magic Café about this, but I think Daryl is most generous magician for many reasons and one reason is this DVD set. I think it is gift to magic world. |
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wally Inner circle 1828 Posts |
I am now looking for Joe Ovette's "Repeat Knots".
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
Wally!
Check with Greg Bordner (Abbott's Magic, COLON, MICHIGAN) I believe that Percy Abbott first advertised it in the early '40s ($1.00). As mentioned in my posts above, I got it from an old magician, the late ROY SHRIMPLIN, in '46. The late ROY MAYER, a year or so later, emphasized its effectiveness to me. I've used it since '46, and seldom do a show without it. BRUCE HETZLER, in 1993, compiled and edited, "BEV TAYLOR'S TOWN HOUSE OF MAGIC". Bruce's address was, and may still be, 43 Bellaire Court, APPLETON, WISCONSIN 54911, USA. You might also check with Denny Haney (Denny & Lee's Magic Shop) near Baltimore, Maryland. Denny has a tremendous stock of books. I'll get Denny's address, and post it in a day or two. On pages 65 and 66, BEV TAYLOR'S "NEW SLIDING KNOT" is printed. Bev credits JOE OVETTE (died, 1945)for originating "Repeat Knots", and offers a slightly different "handling" for tying the "knot". I never saw Bev DO it, but, having known Bev, I'm sure he did it well. Dick
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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