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Armando Tell New user mexico city 27 Posts |
Who are you a magician or a juggler?
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phantomace Special user 651 Posts |
Flourishes are no more juggling than a back palm.
Do a fan for a layman and ask if it's juggling. That was disrespectful to what we do. |
zombieboy Special user Connecticut, USA 889 Posts |
Incredibly so. Honestly, are you just looking for a fight?
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Armando Tell New user mexico city 27 Posts |
I don't want to be disrespectful. One day I was performing in London with my friend Guy Hollingworth. I did some flourishes and he told me, “Hey, what do you want? The people who saw you think you have a great skill. People who saw me with out any flourishes don't have a clue and they think I'm a real magician!!!”
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zombieboy Special user Connecticut, USA 889 Posts |
What is Guy Hollingworth doing in Mexico City, anyway?
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Reis O'Brien Inner circle Seattle, WA 2467 Posts |
Oh man... 10 bucks says this guy is full of it. Also, I can't help but chuckle at him saying that he doesn't mean to be disrespectful yet his title for the post is clearly crafted for that very purpose (and not to mention one of the most poorly constructed sentences I have ever seen). Go to the juggling room and try to pick a fight with some clowns. I think he needs to stop and really look at who is being antagonistic here.
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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3222 Posts |
The first definition of antagonism in the dictionary is: “opposition of a conflicting force, tendency, or principle”. I do not think Armando Tell was referring to the second definition, which is, "actively expressed opposition or hostility." (There are more definitions relating to physiological action!)
I think he meant that flourishes can hurt magical effects. He's right, they can in some cases. For other magical effects, flourishes are neutral, or even enhance the magic. The point is a valid one. A display of something being difficult is not the same as a display of something that is impossible. However, there is no reason that the magician's persona could not exhibit magical powers and extraordinary skill at the same time. The two are not mutually exclusive. That point about antagonism of effects doesn’t apply just to flourishes. Some magic effects can hurt other magic effects if they are put together. Michael Ammar doesn't do an ambitious card routine before he does his card on the ceiling trick. That's because he wants people to know the card is in the middle of the deck when he throws the deck to the ceiling. If he’s just magically brought the card to the top many times, the effect of the card on the ceiling is weakened. For some card tricks, the display of great skill exhibited when performing flourishes can have a similar effect. In these cases, It would actually be better to appear clumsy rather than to appear an expert with cards (although appearing clumsy might not fit in with the desired persona the performer assumes, being neutral is generally best.) Erdnase pointed out in his book, “The Expert at the Card Table” about the danger of showing skill at cards. He was referring to cheating when playing card games, but the point applies to performing some card magic too. All that considered, I think flourishes are great! They look cool, and many people like them. Properly placed in a magic performance, they can enhance an act. Also, magic mixed in with a flourish show can do the same. Also, the difficulty in learning or performing either a sleight or a flourish is not always important to a spectator. The Cobra cut is very difficult, and it even looks very difficult, but it leaves me cold. I think a smooth card fan looks better! That’s just me. Other people might feel differently. The world is full of different types of people. Finally, I know people who are crazy about flourishes, and I know people who don’t care for them. Both groups are right to feel the way they do.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
Donny Orbit Special user 944 Posts |
TG Murphy is working on a book for the end of the year that supposedly finds the gray area between the 2 and will help banish the question once and for all. For those of you that don't know about TG, to borrow a term from Mr. T, “I pity the fool.”
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Reis O'Brien Inner circle Seattle, WA 2467 Posts |
Extremely well said, Bill. Everything has its place and time. Geek magic is a fine example of needing to know when to exercise your self-discretion. I mostly use flourishes (and I'm not even that good at them compared to many of these guys around here) to catch peoples' attention. Sometimes I'll swing one out in the middle of a bit just to make it flashy. And the truth is, people love them! My own dear mother could care less if I find her card, but she goes nuts when I do a simple butterfly cut. Go figure. However, I did a series of flourishes for a bunch of my cousins at Christmas and now they won't play poker with me! Umm... not that I blame them.
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Logan Five Inner circle Northern California 1434 Posts |
People like flourishes ! It tells the audience that your performance is worth watching. But too many flourishes is a sin.
Self concept is destiny..
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Dave Scribner Assistant Manager Lake Hopatcong, NJ 4849 Posts |
Zombie boy, you might want to reread Armando's post. He didn't say Guy was in Mexico city, he said he was with him in London. It really doesn't matter where he was, it's the quote that's important.
Where the magic begins
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Armando Tell New user mexico city 27 Posts |
Firedice, sorry, my intentions are others. Bill understand my thought. I believe sometimes flourishes kill the physiological effect. Firedice, yes you are right about my poorly constructed sentences. I made an effort because I don't speak English at all. Sorry all if I was disrespectful, that was not my intentions. Armando
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Reis O'Brien Inner circle Seattle, WA 2467 Posts |
Now, see there! THAT is a stand up kind of guy! No harm, no foul, Armando. I hope this thread helps you understand the ideology behind flourishes.
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SEVEN New user 82 Posts |
Flourishes rule!
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KidMagic87 Regular user 184 Posts |
When you perform magic, the idea is not for people to think that you have great skill with cards, but to think that you CAN do REAL magic. When doing flourishes, the purpose is to make the audience think you're a person who has unimaginable skill with cards. A few flourishes are all one needs to know to accomplish this task.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I debated long and hard before putting any flourishes into my act. I found a gray area that works for me. I won't explain what it is, because it wouldn't work for anyone else. But it's there.
If you are a card cheat, it is very unwise to demonstrate any kind of flourishes at all. It can be hazardous to your health. But if you are a magician, that's an entirely different thing. Audiences expect us to be able to control just about everything, including the cards we handle. A couple of flourishes interspersed into the act at the right time and place can actually serve as misdirection for something that is being set up. Whatever it is that you do, it has to fit your act. BTW, when Armando asks, "Who are you a magician or a juggler?" he is forgetting that in the old days, they were one and the same. William Vincent, who was the original Hocus Pocus, during the 17th century, was a conjurer, juggler, ropewalker and fireeater.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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