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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
As a spin-off form another discussion, how would we define 'professional'?
A typical dictionary entry (oxforddictionaries.com) might note the following denotations: 1. Relating to or belonging to a profession 2. Worthy of or appropriate to a professional person; competent, skilful, or assured 3. Engaged in a specified activity as one’s main paid occupation rather than as an amateur I think I'd translate that, adding my own opinion, into the following definitions (starting with what I consider the most primary): 1. A professional is someone who earns enough money from their vocation alone to live a comfortable life 2. A professional has undergone an extended and difficult period of training and education, vetted and assessed by his peers and superiors, usually resulting in some recognised formal qualification 3. A professional has acknowledged expertise in a narrow and specific discipline 4. A professional conducts themselves in a polite, respectful and appropriate manner - they act professionally I think that at minimum one must fulfil 1. to be called a 'professional', and really I think one must fulfil 2. and 3. also. 4 is far more debateable and is really the difference between 'professional' (noun) and 'professionally' (adverb). Obviously, I don't hit a single one so I am clearly not a professional in any sense of the word. Hobbyist is much easier to define (and be): 1. A person who pursues a particular hobby Or, in my translation: 1. Someone with any degree more interest in a specific topic than a random member of the general public Which is undoubtedly what I am - I have slightly more interest in magic than most people. Does this sound fair? |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Methinks "having a hobby" requires some work beyond just a "higher level of interest" that the general public.
Reading a novel rather than watching a movie does not make one a reading hobbyist. A man building a glider out of wood match sticks invests as much effort and study into his project as many professional magicians do in adding anew trick to a show. I feel that I have a lot more 'Interest" in all facets of magic than most professionals do since they must focus on "entertaining people" and making money. I consider that Dick was/is a professional magicians, but would not consider his history as leading a "comfortable life."
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
No, reading a novel wouldn't - because that level of desire to read is broadly comparable with the public at large. But reading many novels, and reading about reading novels would be a greater interest than the public at large - which would probably justify the person in question referring to themselves as having 'reading' as a hobby.
I'm sure many hobbyists do have a greater interest than some professionals in magic - but degree of interest in a discipline doesn't seem necessary for the appropriate application of the title, not in my opinion or in the dictionary. A lawyer bored with the law can still be a professional, a non-lawyer with a huge interest in the law is not a professional regardless of their enthusiasm. If the 'professional' doesn't earn enough to live a comfortable life then they are perhaps pursuing a vocation rather than a profession. There is a class/wealth element/connotation to 'profession' that exists, I think. |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
The Wikipedia page on 'profession' might help in tracking that class/ wealth/ prestige element in 'profession' noted above:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profession It might be that 'magician' cannot really be a 'profession' at all. |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Since I have time to chat on the Internet at 6AM I obviously am not a professional at anything
a professional magician would either be sleeping from last night's exhaustion or practicing for tomorrow, or in Dick's case, fixing a flat tire.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Lol I hope you get enough sleep.
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
Ken, I realize that you were kidding, but for those who don't KNOW me: I was successful enough to pay a man to fix tires! hee hee.
Before I became a full time professional, I matriculated (!!) and, received a good education. I was successful enough to own four CORVETTES. (At one point, I owned TWO Corvettes.) I always paid CASH for a new car or motor home. My credit card invoice was always paid in full, each month. I invested in stocks, bonds, and, an IRA. I bought and sold magicians' estates. I'm comfortably retired! I was a full time successful professional magician for 50 years. I was never "at liberty". I learned early what was necessary to be successful. I have mentored a number of young men who are now successful professionals. --And, a number who are now avid amateurs, who understand what it takes to be a professional! I have never encouraged those young men to become professionals. I always advise them to get a good education, first, and, then decide. Not every hobbyist/amateur could or would "make it" as a pro. IMO, Terrible Wizard would never make it. He's too concerned with his "theories". It's hard to book a "One Trick Pony"! I thought for a moment, that he had understood. But, I was wrong. (Notice! I have not spoken a word to HIM!)
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
You're probably right, I wouldn't make it as a pro. Not because of any attachment to any theories - I don't have any, I merely discuss stuff here, I have zero attachment to any ideas - but because I'd not be willing to go through the painful sacrifices people who want to become 'professional' (ie working) magicians have to go through.
You can speak to me directly if you wish, Dick, I haven't ever told you to cease engagement with me. Of course if you prefer not to that is your prerogative. I sense a degree of hostility in your posts to, or rather about, me. I find that sad, but you're entitled to your opinion of me, as unfounded as I believe it to be. How would you respond to the first post, Dick? |
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
I love discussing theory, I love the philosophy of magic but it can sometimes strangle progress. My recommendation based on your volume of posts is what a wise man told me many years ago..."Less Talking, More Doing" Now I'm back to do just that, good luck!
Ray Pierce
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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
The whole pro/hobby debate is ludicrous. Pro's make money. Generally a pro is someone who one thing for his money. Magic? Generally you perform. There are add-ons: Lectures, product development, etc. But, basically a pro magician goes about doing magic for his dinner, etc.
The Hobbyist has a "real" job (lol) and for 'fun' is involved in magic is some way. He might even do some shows for extra money and many are quite good at it. One of the ten best magic performers I've ever known did it part time. Something else brought in the big bucks. But, he was NOT a pro. He was a hobbyist with a professional attitude to performing magic. It's not that hard. Want to be a 'pro'??? Do shows FOR money. Do you just do free shows for various venues? You are not a pro. You are a hobbyist that does free shows. There is NOTHING wrong with being a hobbyist. Nothing. It's fun. Much less stress! It's not an insult. A hobbyist can perform magic at a professional level. Some do. But, it separates the men from boys when you have to depend on getting and then doing shows and at a level that keeps the bookings coming in and pays the rent, taxes, food, kids, etc. That's not so easy. You want to make a living doing magic you can't be lazy.
Brad Burt
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Ben Blau Inner circle 1475 Posts |
I think of my self as a professionally competent, amateur performer/hobbyist.
Ben Blau
http://www.benblaumentalism.com |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Ray:
Good luck Ray, all the best Brad: I'm not sure why it's ludicrous, but thanks for the input anyway. I totally agree that it's not bad to be a hobbyist and that therm itself is not insulting, I'd never argue otherwise. Sometimes, perhaps, the term hobbyist might be used in a pejorative manner by someone, but that' can be true of pretty much any term. But this thread isn't about that. It's simply an investigation into exactly what is a professional, or what makes a professional magician. After all, there is the argument to be had as to whether the magcician can be a profession at all given standard definitions. Also, the idea of one's skills being vetted and assessed is an interesting one when applied to magic, where many effectively teach themselves and recieve no formal qualification in 'magicology', lol Ben: That's interesting. How do you assess professional competence? |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
You seem hung up on dictionary definitions. But a good dictionary, like Merriam Websters New Collegiate, offer several accepted definitions for many words. Here is their complete definition of "professional." Note that nearly everyone her is referring to definition #2.
Quote:
professional Merriam-Webster also offers a "simple" definition that is certainly applicable to a competent magician: Quote:
: relating to a job that requires special education, training, or skill http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/professional Or just answer this question, "What is the opposite of an amateur theatrical group?" Without an understanding of how others on this thread define "professional," the entire conversation does indeed become ludicrous. To quote Strother Martin in his role as the chain gang captain in "Cool Hand Luke" : ' |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Why do I seem hung-up on dictionary definitions? I gave it as a starting place, but then proceeded to offer my own and asked for other people's? I can't really see that as being hung-up.
Anyway, yes, that dictiknary's secondary entry certainly coheres with my own definition in the opening post. So, are you agreeing with my given definition? Would you add any particular nuances, or is it good as is? |
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
Hi Brad!
Thank you for that great post just above! You have expressed my thoughts very well I especially liked: "...He was a hobbyist with a PROFESSIONAL ATTITUDE to performing magic." (The "CAPS" are mine.) I have, long ago, realized that, setting the "money" aside, ATTITUDE is a major factor in deciding whether a performer is a PROFESSIONAL performer.
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Indeed, Dick, using it as a descriptor rather than noun is valid and fits in with my definition given in the opening post. But, as Brad noted, that would not make him a professional magician, but rather a professional acting hobbyist.
Dick, would you then say that acting in a certain way is more important than earning a living when it comes to deciding whether or not someone is a professional? |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Quote:
On May 14, 2016, Terrible Wizard wrote: WHO CARES??? The definition of a word that has multiple meanings and nuances is determined by the intent of the author and the context in which it is used. It has NOTHING to do with a general consensus as to its "real meaning." But now that this thread has turned into a sophomoric, meaningless, and and pretentious parody of serious "discussion," it's time for me to bow out. I haven't seen so much bullsh!t since Grandma took me to the stockyards. |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
I care. For all I know Dick cares. But no matter, it's cool. There's no point staying in a discussion one no longer enjoys or feels is profitable. Thank you for the contributions so far, and all the best
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1KJ Inner circle Warning: We will run out of new tricks in 4385 Posts |
I earn money through magic, but I consider myself a hobbyist. I don't pay the bills with magic. I run a company that pays the bills and invests for the future. If it was the other way around, I would call myself a professional magician. Fortunately for me, I love both my career and my hobby.
KJ |
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1KJ Inner circle Warning: We will run out of new tricks in 4385 Posts |
I guess my point was a pro pays the bills with magic, a hobbyist doesn't.
KJ |
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