|
|
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3~4 [Next] | ||||||||||
funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9981 Posts |
I haven't seen than, Ray, and there may be some commonalities. Mine were one-on-one with small business owners during business evaluations.
The point is that when their "mind is fried" they do not conclude "must be magic" or even attempt to reconstruct. Instead they question the concept of "impossible" -- most often examining what they consider to be "impossible for them." I often told stories as allegory too in order for them to consider a problem for a different perspective without "instructing them." The bets way to get someone to reconsider a false perception is to challenge it with another false perception. I also used "found objects" in their office or meeting place and developed many new sleights and handling for small objects. Some I later learned were similar to an already published move. Some can be translated into effects or moves for coins, balls, etc. Sadly, I cannot observe an effect without instantly thinking of a way to improve it, i.e. make it more magical, but usually just make it less entertaining. Most would not play well for a large audience and therefor not suitable for a person trying to lake a living out of performance magic. All right if you do not consider what I did to "be magic." What is it then? Above you offer "essentially magic tricks." Please explain. If one uses trickery to create an illusion of overcoming the impossible, why isn't magic?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
|||||||||
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Why is it you ate entitled to opinions about things you never came close to doing yet I am not? Just more irony LOL.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
|||||||||
funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9981 Posts |
Please explain what I have not come close to doing, Danny. Do no guess or project or make thing up. Help me understand your anger and disrespect.
This forum is "Food for Thought," and the thread about a bit of magic theory. Why am I not allowed opinions about either? You are certainly allowed opinions about magic and magic theory, yet you never offer these. I have never suggested otherwise. Instead you assault the opinions of others. I keep waiting to see an opinion of yours and the experience that led to it. How many sleights have you created and shared with others? How many magic effects created by you are now being performed around the world? How many professional magicians have you mentored? What are the titles of some of your published books -- I might like to read some. It is not a matter of whether or not a person has a right to an opinion, Danny -- it is whether that opinion offers something of potential value to another. If you do not find value in what I post, why not stop reading them?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
|||||||||
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
First off forget anger. None here. YOU are projecting that. So really get over yourself. I think disrespect is what YOU show.
Right as usual you forget ACTUAL stage experience in your list. YOU have none. Doing allegedly tens of thousands of one off tricks is not stage experience. Sorry to break it to you. So I ask you why not stop reading my posts? You say all these things yet NEVER apply that to yourself. Perhaps that is the problem some have with you don't you think? You then go on to offer opinions about things you have never done. Then correct the opinions of those who have done it. Finding the problem yet?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
|||||||||
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On May 28, 2016, ThomasJ wrote: You can test that yourself with people by doing a trick straight up in character as a magic-user and set back and let them respond. "I'd like to show you something I found in a book last night." If you get as far as them asking "that's a trick, right?" you've got your answer. Some folks hold dearly to notions of paranormal, supernatural... and so it is that we all see the world through different eyes. Who turned the word "deceive" into "fool"?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
Quote:
On May 29, 2016, funsway wrote: That's interesting, no, I don't feel they think of "magic" right away. They simply question their own reality. I think we as magicians have to frame it as magic to create the correct theatrical context for their entertainment. In the case of Michael Carbonaro, they are not at all entertained but simply confused. I'm not sure if this quote is attributed properly but I always thought it was Vernon who said, "Confusion is not illusion." In Michael's particular television show he is using their confusion to create entertainment for the home viewer because we understand that he is using the framework of magic to place them in this state and create the situation for the home viewer to enjoy. Quote:
All right if you do not consider what I did to "be magic." What is it then? I've never seen your work in person so I don't have any particular preconceptions about what you do or how others might label it. In fact, labels aren't at all necessary if you're not trying to market it or communicate with others. Sometimes the context is helpful if you're discussing it in a group as an aid in discussion where pre-existing categories are somewhat already defined. As a communicator, my job on stage (or I guess anywhere for that matter) isn't to speak but to be understood. I might not need labels or categories to create art for myself but it does help as I try and explain myself in terms people can understand and relate to. I might use totally different language, terminology and framing depending on the intended audience I'm trying to reach. Quote:
Above you offer "essentially magic tricks." Please explain. If one uses trickery to create an illusion of overcoming the impossible, why isn't magic? I think what we perceive as Magic is all about context. Optical illusions can trick or fool people, but as magicians, we need to create a context for deception that makes it into magic and hopefully also interesting, entertaining and possibly even thought provoking. That is our job as a storyteller to not just to give the audience details but to frame and sculpt it into something captivating. That is the difference in a well crafted story and a list of details documenting an event. That's the difference in an observation and a well crafted joke as well. The spoken word has been a means passing down history from one generation to another since language was created. I'm sure there were many of our ancestors who had wonderful memories and could list thousands of details and facts concerning past events in their lives and those of their forefathers. Yet it was the master storytellers that could craft these boring facts into intoxicating tales that would stay with us and be continually retold over and over. This power to create powerful imagery and memories is why some stories stand the test of time and others are long forgotten. I hope it is the same for great magic.
Ray Pierce
|
|||||||||
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On May 18, 2016, Koolmagic114 wrote: You find out with audience feedback. Theory comes in handy when what you expect does not match what you find. "Too Perfect" in this case refers to an effect which indicates its method.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I can just can not imagine singers or guitar players sitting about wondering if they were too much in tune. Or a comedian wringing his hands over being too funny. For that matter any group of professional whatever who worry they did too good at job at their chosen professionals.
Magicians, and hobbyists are an odd lot. Again I say if they think method look at your presentation. If they are entertained enough odds are pretty good they are not method hunting.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
|||||||||
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Musicians and singers don't usually mime their performances (okay maybe Dolly Parton did Yakkety Sax as a joke).
Comics don't usually get the benefit of giant "applause" signs and a crowd full of folks ready to laugh on cue. Unlike those folks - magicians don't (usually?) have real magic to rely on and so have do something more (rather than less) than what's evident to the audience.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
Quote:
On May 30, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote: lol... well, yeah, there is that.
Ray Pierce
|
|||||||||
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On May 30, 2016, Jonathan Townsend wrote: What does that have to do with anything? Most music people come see in Las Vegas is live. Comedians don't use applause signs unless it is on TV.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
|||||||||
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On May 30, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote: Agreed. Yet audiences don't come to a magic show to see real magic. Singers are supposed to be singing. Comics are supposed to be funny.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
See that is the issue. People do not come to see real magic. BUT they do come to see what looks like real magic. All the hand wringing and consternation does not change what is a fact. The huge majority want to be deceived and entertained.
Magicians have a job and everyone knows what that is. All the word parsing and bs so not change that.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
|||||||||
George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
I am having such a hard time with this thread...
If somebody gets up on stage to present something for a group of spectators, and they enjoy what he did, then it worked for that particular group of spectators. It doesn't matter what they came to see, or what they thought, or what labels they put on the guy, or whether it changed their lives for half a microsecond, or even whether they came to see a rocket scientist and actually saw a brain surgeon. And if they enjoyed it enough to want to come back and see some more, then it worked even better. And if I change "gets up on stage to present something for a group of spectators" to "shows one person something at the water fountain," or "at the dinner table," or anywhere else, it's still the same. It worked. And I don't care if it worked for 99% of the audience, or 54.5%, or any other number. If the audience as a whole liked it, it worked.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
|||||||||
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On May 30, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote: Agreed. We have to do some hidden work so that our routines look magical. Agreed a show needs to be entertaining. That's a given in show business. "Too Perfect" is for when folks correctly imagined what we hid - it suggests ways to use that hidden mechanics to get a different effect audiences will go along with. Here's "too perfect" in reverse: Imagine a pickpocket reframing his act claiming to have super speed. He asks a volunteer up - then asks what time they have... as the volunteer starts to look down the performer make a gesture and produces the watch. Next asks for number, say the serial number on a dollar bill. As the volunteer starts to reach for their wallet to oblige... the performer produces the wallet. Same mechanics but different effects. So far the pickpocket comedy act works as is. Not sure "fast hands" would play well for audiences.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
Mr. Townsend pointed out one of the real problems with the "Too Perfect" theory. It's in a sense an oxymoron. It's a pejorative term and yet it sounds like it should not be. Who doesn't want to do a presentation "as perfect" as possible? This is one reason I've never liked it.
Two magicians are watching an act. It ends and the first says, "Wow! That was just perfect!" The other looks at him and says, "Yes, but, well...was it too perfect?" It's nonsense. If the fear is that a spectator will go, "Wow! That was so perfect it must have been done with a holdout." More nonsense. Lay folk for the most part do not think in those categories. If the problem is that when folks are TOO MESMERIZED INTO DUMFOUNDEDNESS (fooled) they will say, "Hey that's gotta be a trick, but I sure don't know how it could have been done." Well, duh!!! Frankly, this is not chic, but that's about the best I hope for. I don't care if folks are in a rage to "know" how it's done. That's WAAAAAY better than indifference. That's really what it's all about. If the audience just does not CARE that they just watched you do your thing.....that's bad. Really, really, really bad. Unless you are working a Psyche ward and they are all heavily sedated. Then, well..... I espouse the "Is The Routine Sucky, Incoherent and Badly Presented" theory. Or, to compress: The Not So Perfect Theory. Some folks are going to try and come up with a method. What I want is to keep them from coming up with the correct one.
Brad Burt
|
|||||||||
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Too Perfect is about changing the effect while keeping the method. The bluff vanish is a fair example - changing the effect from a vanish to a penetration.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
For me, the Too Perfect theory should have been labeled "Too Simple" instead. It is a simple (as opposed to compound) effect where the only possible solution would be the correct one. In other words, an effect that is too simple for the audience to see the method. It has no layered subterfuge to create a richer background for the method to blend into. It still seems to be a weakness in the performer's presentation (and possibly the routining as well.) Remembering that a basic "trick" is typically a tool used to create an effect. Now days it seems that people purchase "routines" as opposed to learning techniques and methods that can be utilized to create many effects. When I was in my vernal years of magical growth, it was expected that you learned every basic coin utility move, basic card handling, a working cups and balls routine, color changing silks, paddle moves, sponge balls, C&R Rope moves, etc. These were all basic journeyman tools you could leverage to create routines of any type. In addition to the technical tools, you mastered misdirection techniques and the psychological tools to support the technical ones. using both sets of tools in both the design phase as well as the performance, you should be able to correct for any "Too Perfect" scenario. That was our goal in the magic shop every day to find ways to further bury the method of effects that were discovered too readily by poor design.
Ray Pierce
|
|||||||||
funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9981 Posts |
Quote:
On May 29, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote: Why would you assume that? I only mention my preferred method of performing for contrast. You have no idea of all that I have done. no matter, this thread isn't about me or you. How about discussing the "too Perfect Theory." but, thanks for clarifying that you feel that only "stage experience" can allow one to know magic or discuss it. In fact, I will even agree with you a bit. I do not consider that my "stage experience" qualifies me to give advice on how a person today should prepare to make money performing on stage for today's audiences. So, I don't. The various threads on "Food for Thought" are for everyone interested in magic and the reasons why it works or doesn't. I post for those who never intend to try and make a living for performance magic, but do desire to be better at what they choose to do. I will read any and all posts on selected magic theme and extract what might be of use to my future work. In this I might assign a higher level of credibility to someone with known performance experience relative to that theme. Each person has different experiences and therefor different opinions about magic. How boring and unproductive is everyone had the same conclusion from diverse experience.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
|||||||||
PhilJake New user 73 Posts |
I have several comments regarding the concept of "too perfect" in spite or perhaps because of my lack of experience. I purchase an effect or a routine and try to learn it exactly as performed by the pro. I am trying to learn the classics and perform them in the classical way. I am not ready to create my own routines but I do try to add my own subtleties. I am still of the mind set that if I can't end clean, the spectator will assume I must be hiding a gimmick and demand to examine it. With that in mind I try to make scotch and soda, for example, look more like awkward sleight of hand than real magic, so the effect isn't "too perfect."
Preventing the "too perfect" effect is about the performance not the effect and creating an effect that looks like real magic but causes the spectator to question how it was done not what it was done with. The magician should get credit for the effect; not the coin. It's the same concept when a photographer takes a beautiful photograph and people say wow, that camera takes nice pictures. If it looks "too perfect" the assumption is the prop did it because in my case I don't have the reputation to back it up. I bet no one told Ansel Adams that his camera takes nice pictures. Reputation, confidence and authority all create credibility and with that people can be convinced to believe in nearly anything evidenced by the popularity of mediums and ghost hunters. It's also odd to think that if I were "too perfect" and able to convince someone that I was performing real magic, mentalism or telekinetic effects, that I might be challenged as a fraud by the likes of The Amazing Randi. (not a complaint by the way) I think this concept of "too perfect has created an entire genre of sucker magic and magic routines with explanations to throw off the "too perfect" appearance or to rightfully place the focus on skill. Pop Haydn is a wonderful example. |
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Food for thought » » "Too Perfect" Theory (12 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3~4 [Next] |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.07 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |