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Slim King Eternal Order Orlando 18028 Posts 
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Over the years I've seen people with multiple identities here ... A sure way to catch them is to see if they forget which identity they are using.. Then they make a mistake and sign the wrong name .. It's worked for me catching a lot of trolls that way.
Back to the subject at hand .. IF and it's a big "IF" ... a person has a magic performance as believable as a mentalism routine.. Then and only THEN would I mix the two. BTW .. I rarely do .. But this must be the criteria for that to happen... Make sense?
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
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Decomposed Eternal Order High Desert 12059 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 21, 2016, Slim King wrote: First part LOL, yeah that is so true. Second part, I can see that and have seen that. How about someone who performs mentalism for pay, and practices magic as a hobby only?
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Slim King Eternal Order Orlando 18028 Posts
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Well...I think that would RUIN everything unless you can do real magic....
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
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MagicalEducator Veteran user 369 Posts
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The majority of the press I see online talks about Kreskin as a mentalist from New Jersey. Must be the water there.
Voted "Canada's Most Inspirational Magician"
www.MagicalEducator.com Check out my column "Magic is Education" in Vanish Magazine |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts
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Didn't you say in your previous post that he's remembered as a magician?
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M. Tesla Regular user Coral Springs, Florida 154 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 18, 2016, jonnyboy wrote: WHOA! First, if you think mentalism is easier than coin or card magic, guess again. It's much more disciplined, and the "toys" you speak about do require technical expertise, and study, and enough practice to make sure your presentation of same is polished, and the spectators envision you as a psychic, or a mind-reader. Instant mentalist? BS. Try doing an hour long show with "toys" and gimmicks and no presentation or polish what-so-ever. Second, while mentalism can play to a large crowd, twenty years ago I was performing as a magician, with my stage act playing to some large venues...1500 to 2000 people is hardly a smaller crowd. Third, while, for the most part, yes, the pack small play big, is a benefit, but you'd better know what you're doing with those "smaller" props. Fourth, while you say it is hard to make up your own card effects, coin effects, and illusions, it is not relatively easier to come up with an original premise for a mentalism effect as so much has been written about the subject in the last 100 years... what's hard is coming up with something totally new. It is extremely difficult because you're usually just re-hashing what has come before. Fifth, it's nice to know at my age that I'm still sexy. As for the large numbers of magicians trying to incorporate mentalism effects into their acts, they're just that, doing mental magic tricks, not mentalism...if they want to be mentalists, stop doing magic and learn what it is to be a mentalist. I've been studying the field for close to forty years, and after being away from magic for over a decade, I doubt anyone will remember me as a magician...that, and I will be using a stage name when I finish putting the act together, and marketing it. Sixth, yes, magicians don't care about keeping mentalism pure, and if that goes on long enough, it may ruin it for all of us...it's necessary to keep magic and mentalism separate. And, I don't call what they're doing, mentalism, but rather, mental magic tricks. Go out and try and earn a living as a mentalist...it's much easier to get a magic gig. Seventh, that's the difference...mentalists don't perform with tubes and tables and boxes...its easier to rely on a prop to amuse your audience, when you're a magician...now amuse them with a paper and a pencil, if you think it's so easy. If you're doing mentalism correctly, they won't wonder about any trick ways of doing things; they'll either believe you're really psychic, or are demonstrating to them the science of the mind, telepathy (the ability to read another person's thoughts), clairvoyance (the ability to "see" events or objects happening somewhere else), precognition (the ability to see the future), mediumship (the ability to channel dead spirits), et cetera, et cetera, et cetera...and with time, practice, and experience, your audience won't even think about what they saw...they'll just accept it... Regardless, the two (magic and mentalism) are mutually exclusive...so, if you're a magician and so enamored with mentalism, then why not stop doing magic and become a mentalist...isn't that what this is all really about?
While the amount of water has remained static, the amount of Tequila and Triple Sec available for making Margaritas has expanded enormously. So you see, we have made progress after all. ~Anonymous
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10618 Posts
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So very nicely and well said.
It seems that is coming out is what mentalists have known all along. Magicians are attempting to do mentalism (really mental magic) without really knowing or understanding what they are doing.....and I guess why they are even doing it. |
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Artie Fufkin Special user 853 Posts
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The "why they are even doing it" question is what (speaking as a magician) I was referencing in my earlier post.
Unlike Mentalists, who practice their craft with a deep appreciation and understanding of WHY they're practicing their craft ... Magicians, especially amateur Magicians LOVE methods, and seek them out like a bee seeks out honey. On the Magic Café, that "seeking" isn't very hard at all, indeed it's as easy as learning how to work a vent'n'dummy or do card juggling. Just click on the next forum down! To Magicians, it matters not whether it's a piece of pure mentalism. If the method for that piece of pure Menalism is devious and relatively unknown among other local Magicians, it's a prime candidate for the next restaurant walk-around gig as their next "fooler"! I once again would point out Tequila Hustler as an example of the kind of secret that Mentalists should NEVER let go of. Something like that should be guarded like the non-existent gold bars in Fort Knox. It won't be of course, as Jim Steinmeyer has said about magic for years, "we guard an empty vault" ... as it seems, like Magicians did decades ago - Mentalists have already let the cat out of the bag, and the ability to stop Magicians from usurping mentalisms crown jewels simply doesn't exist any longer. My suggestion, as much as it hides away things I enjoy reading about ... take it deep underground my Mentalist friends! |
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jonnyboy Inner circle San Diego 1021 Posts
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M. Tessler-
WHOA! I think you misperceived my post completely. Since no one else responded to Mindpro's question, I was trying to postulate an answer as to why magicians want to do mentalism effects. You appeared to have made incorrect assumptions as to my position, and misread what I said. For example, I didn't say that mentalism IS easier. I said that mentalism can SEEM easier than coin tricks and card magic. And using electronics can make it seem even easier. This makes magicians want to do mentalism. "Instant mentalist" was a deliberately sarcastic phrase that was apparently lost on you. I was describing what I perceived to be the lure of mentalism to magicians. As to my second point about playing to larger venues, you again misread my statement. I said that mentalism can play to a much larger crowd than SOME magic disciplines. This was not an absolute statement, and I wasn't attacking you and saying you never drew big crowds (or magicians). Just pointing out that mentalism can play to larger crowds than close up magic, like coins. Again, I was describing what I perceived to be the lure of mentalism to magicians. As to my third point, yes, mentalism can pack small and play big. That's why I said it, as a perceived benefit of being a mentalist over a magician. And of course you need to know what you are doing with them. I don't understand what point you are trying to make. Fourth, I disagree with you on the mentalism premise. I think it is relatively easier to come up with a theme, or premise, for an effect than to make up a whole, brand new coin trick or card trick. I think it is easier to come up with a new story than it is to invent a sleight. That may be because the number of card effects and books and DVDs clearly outnumber the number of mentalism materials. Again, though, whether we agree or disagree on this point, my post was about the PERCEPTION of a magician, and why he may want to do mentalism based effects now. Fifth, you appear to conflate my statement about mentalism being sexy with mentalists being sexy. I made no such comparison or postulation of whether a mentalist or a magician was sexy. Just that the art form of mentalism was sexy at the moment. This is why everyone wants to do mentalism now, and why magicians are flocking to it. Again, I was answering Mindpro's question as to why magicians want to do mentalism. Not defending magicians or belittling mentalism. Sixth, again, I was writing from what I perceived the magician's POV to be, that THEY don't care about keeping mentalism pure, or the labels that mentalists put on their effects. This is a subject of some controversy here, and I deliberately did not take a stance on it. Seventh, you agreed with me and just simply restated my point. You write in a very challenging manner, that I should try to amuse someone with a paper and pencil if I think it is so easy. Guess what? I'm a mentalist, not a magician. You misread my entire post and misunderstood completely that I had taken the time to postulate and speculate why magicians are trying to do mentalism effects. If you can't understand that, and read the language of posts more critically and carefully, there is nothing I can do about it. |
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M. Tesla Regular user Coral Springs, Florida 154 Posts
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Well, if I misunderstood , very sorry, but you should have made your approach clearer...I don't think I was the only one who misunderstood...and I didn't think you were attacking me or anyone else about the size of venues...it was hard to tell from the way you wrote that it was meant to be sarcastic or facetious in tone...and oh, the "I'm sexy" thing was a joke, although the thought that I might still be sexy at 70 years old (my brain says I'm 30, but my body is saying guess again!) would thrill my fiancee to no end...as for the rest of it, I'll still maintain it's easier to come up with a new card or coin trick, or new card or coin sleight, than a totally new metalism concept...there has been so much written about mentalism since the end of the the 19th century, that anything totally new would be difficult...I have several shelves devoted to nothing but the subject of mentalism...yes, there's ways to repackage older material, but totally new? I dunno...
While the amount of water has remained static, the amount of Tequila and Triple Sec available for making Margaritas has expanded enormously. So you see, we have made progress after all. ~Anonymous
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jonnyboy Inner circle San Diego 1021 Posts
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No worries, M. Tessler. Regarding what I'm saying about premise is not about coming up with something totally new in effect, but the premise or the theme of an effect. You can dress up a mentalism effect in myriad ways, simply by changing the premise. One can take the same effect and go spooky, or demonstrate telepathy, or superb memory. One can tell a heart tugging story to accompany an effect, evoking a past memory. To me, this is where much of the artistry in mentalism resides. Not in the quality of b*llet switches, or n**l wr*t*ng. Those skills should be a sine qua non of a competent mentalist.
And it seems I'm not being totally clear even now; I wasn't trying to be sarcastic or facetious (except for the Instant Mentalist crack) in tone. I was making a sincere effort to speculate why magicians are now drawn to mentalism. Frankly, I don't remember seeing anyone else attempt to articulate reasons why magicians are entering the mentalism (or at least saying they are) in larger numbers than before, and thereby increasing the risk of trivialization of mentalism. |
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M. Tesla Regular user Coral Springs, Florida 154 Posts
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Hmmm...not into b*ll*t switches and n**l wr*t*ng? What kind of mentalist are you? Those methods are the basis of everything...
J/K...I'm not overly fond of those either, although I think we're sorta stuck with the b*ll*t thing...I think there's other and perhaps better ways of accomplishing the same results...as for the n**l wr*t*ing I can hardly read my own writing as it is, let alone using that method...the only thing you'd read from me there, is chicken scratches...
While the amount of water has remained static, the amount of Tequila and Triple Sec available for making Margaritas has expanded enormously. So you see, we have made progress after all. ~Anonymous
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jonnyboy Inner circle San Diego 1021 Posts
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Sorry, I guess I'm being unclear. I have nothing against b*llet sw*tches or n**l wr*ters, and in fact use the first technique liberally. What I was trying to say is that the technical aspects are the fundamentals and basis for good mentalism, and that a good mentalist has those techniques down cold. That the quality of such techniques should be beyond reproach or detection. Then, for me, the artistry of mentalism lies primarily in the interaction with the audience and weaving of the spell, to incorporate those techniques so seamlessly and invisibly that they are never seen or suspected, and the premise of the effect is what leaves the impression on the spectator.
By contrast, I find most card plots rather uninteresting, but very much enjoy great card magic, when performed with technical brilliance. For card magic (and coin magic), the artistry lies in the physical technique (in my opinion), and not in the premise of the effect. Watching Tamariz, or Delgaudio, or Turner, or any of a number of great card men do their stuff, can be sublime. (That being said, I also love Tamariz's card plots and presentations. He is a major exception to the rule.) I have a story regarding difficult to read n**l wr*t*ng. I was in Vegas a few years ago and was fortunate to see Kreskin perform in a good setting. At one point, he came up to me with his pad folio, and asked me to read the number he had previously predicted (actually, had just n.w.), and although I wanted to help him in the worst way, I couldn't read what he wrote. I wasn't sure that it was a 12 or 13. And I wasn't sure which number he wanted. So I did my best, and was wrong ("off by one"). Pro that he was, Kreskin simply corrected me, and said, "It says 12", and moved on. He was moving fast, so it wasn't like it was a huge reveal or anything, just one of many reveals. I felt terribly about it. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts
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If your nw technique is lousy, you can just show them what you wrote, saying, "And look at what number I wrote- twelve!"
Or, better yet, put in the many months of practice required to use a nw properly. Sleight of hand in skilled mentalism (as opposed to self-working store-bought mental magic) requires the same proficiency level and nerve required of a professional high-stakes card cheat working solo. For the cheat, accidental exposure can result in serious injury. In pure mentalism it will result in a complete loss of credibility and, if the performer is working "strong," derisive laughter and name-calling as well. But when a magician drops his thumb-tip or accidentally exposes something, he can usually just blow it off with a funny one-liner. After all, the audience already KNOWS that he's just doing tricks. While some magicians certainly use a far greater number of sleights, the mentalist's moves must be flawless and so natural in performance that they are virtually invisible and unsuspected. So when someone tells me that classical mentalism is easier than magic, I know they're in for an embarrassing lesson should they attempt billet work or other skill-based techniques before a paying audience. And, frankly, I think that fear of exposure, and guilt about claiming or implying telepathy or paranormal abilities, are just two of the reasons that many feel a lot safer doing mental magic as opposed to claim-based mentalism. As I said during a PEA interview over thirty years ago, the three most significant attributes of the "Complete Mentalist" are showmanship, technical mastery and nerve. And I'm sorry to see that so many newcomers don't seem to understand that. |
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MagicalEducator Veteran user 369 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 22, 2016, mastermindreader wrote: He advertises as a mentalist and the public still remembers him as a magician. Apparently to some it's the same thing despite what fancy labels we put on it. You can call it whatever you want but most people realize that mentalism still involves secret moves/psychology which is really just a sub genre of magic. People have asked what are magicians afraid of? Perhaps the question is what are "mentalists" so afraid of? Jeff
Voted "Canada's Most Inspirational Magician"
www.MagicalEducator.com Check out my column "Magic is Education" in Vanish Magazine |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts
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To "some," of course it is. And in the upper Midwest there are people who refer to all kinds of soda as "Coke." If you go into a diner and ask for a Coke, the waitress will probably ask, "What kind? Rootbeer, Pepsi or Sprite?")
But here's something I wrote a long time ago, in somewhat different form, that might be helpful in understanding if one is perceived as a magician or mentalist, whether or not people could cogently explain the difference: Quote:
HOW TO TELL IF YOU ARE DOING MENTAL MAGIC OR MENTALISM: And what, by the way, are you suggesting mentalists are afraid of? And if you actually perform claim-based mentalism and think that MOST people in your audience believe you're just using secret moves and psychology, you're doing something wrong. When you're doing it right, a lot of them will actually argue with each other, after the show, over whether or not you're "real." |
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M. Tesla Regular user Coral Springs, Florida 154 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 22, 2016, mastermindreader wrote: Ah...I totally agree with the above...there's some magicians that can learn from that too...the nw thing is mostly because my hands shake a bit and writing of any kind is becoming more difficult...I have PPS, which mimics the symptoms of ALS and MS, but at least it's not fatal...real pain in the *** though...I can write fairly well, but using a nw is a no-go for me...most other things necessary for a mentalist are no problem...
While the amount of water has remained static, the amount of Tequila and Triple Sec available for making Margaritas has expanded enormously. So you see, we have made progress after all. ~Anonymous
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Decomposed Eternal Order High Desert 12059 Posts
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According to social media, Richard Osterlind just won PEA coveted award for mentalist of the year. I know Richard does some magic, heck I even have some of it.... Plus he is one of my favorite to watch. Just so dang down to earth with a great sense of humor. I think clients warm up to most with this persona.
ClICK HERE for HOW TO MAKE TRANSITION FROM MAGICIAN TO MOTIVATIONAL SPEAKER WORLD NEW BOOK!
Click here for NEW PROMO TRAILER! 90 seconds of pure laughs without a standing ovation! Click here for Magicians Austin Mentalist Performance https://www.facebook.com/AustinMagicians https://www.speakermatch.com/profile/gianicano/ Magicians Company Entertainers in Dallas, TX https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8sHW_zVuSc https://about.me/motivationalpublicspeaker |
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Lou Is New user 73 Posts
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts
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The PEA does not give a Mentalist of the Year award. The highest is the Dunninger Award for Excellence and Professionalism in the performance of mentalism, which was awarded this year to Max Maven.
Richard Osterlind received the Dan Blackwood Memorial Award for Outstanding Contribution to the Art of Mentalism. Your post creates the false impression that the PEA supports the contention that magic and mentalism can be mixed. Virtually every PEA member holds a similar position to my own. |
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Posted: Jun 22, 2016 04:11 am 
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