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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Dice cheating in The Magician and the Cardshap (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

marc_carrion
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Hi, in the Magician and the Cardsharp Karl Johnson tells the story of a young Dai Vernon searching for the Center Deal. In page 116, Roy Burton demonstrates for Bob Shortridge throwing dice in all numerical values from snake eyes to boxcars. Does anyone know how that can be accomplished either technically or using loaded dice (and how to switch them)? Is there any good book on techniques for throwing dice to get the desired values to come out? and is there some other book with type of modified dice and techniques for switching?

Thanks!

Marc
ImpromptuBoy
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I believe Ed Marlo's Shoot The Works discusses and teaches a few dice control techniques. And Steve Forte's Casino Game Protection book, while it doesn't teach techniques, it discusses the subject of controlled dice shots, and a number of different techniques as well
Cagliostro
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You are probably looking for the Whip Shot, also called the Hudson Shot. It controls two dice out of the hand and you can throw any number.

See Scarne on Dice, Forte's Gambling Protection Series and a little booklet entitled How to Control Fair Dice that was sold by Mason and Co. and KC Card Co. back in the day. You may be able to find a copy on line of that booklet.
Artie Fufkin
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Note too that most of these controlled dice moves are entirely dependent on the dice not having to bounce off either a wall, or the rubber bumpers on a regulation craps table.

It's highly questionable (although there are always some that question it) whether, if playing for money, you could ever get away with some of these legendary controlled dice shots if the dice are obliged to bounce off the wall or bumper.

Personally, and as dangerous as making definitive statements is when discussing cheating with dice, I think controlled shots which are obliged (by a Boxman, Stick, or fellow players) to bounce off a wall or backboard are completely and utterly impossible.

(Note I said "were obliged to bounce of the back wall", and I didn't say were optically thrown such as to suggest they bounced off the back wall Smile ).

Cag has given you the holy grail of publications talking about controlled dice shots in his post above.
JasonEngland
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Marc,

It's important to keep in mind that Shortridge was only 11 years old when he saw that demo with the dice in the diner.

With that in mind, what Karl was describing is almost certainly a "whip cup" scenario. Many people are under the impression that you need a "special" cup and dice with edge work in them to have a whip cup. Not true. Those things help, but they're not absolute necessities.

I once used a standard Yahtzee cup and 4 normal drugstore dice to win $100 for me and Eric Mead at the front desk of the Tropicana hotel in Las Vegas. Eric was checking in and they had a little tray with the cup and dice and a placard:

One pair wins coupon book.
Two pair wins free dinner.
Three-of-a-kind wins tickets to a show.
Four-of-kind wins $100 cash.

So, while Eric was checking in I set the dice in the cup on four sixes. I then looked at Michael Weber who was standing with us and winked. He nodded and we waited for Eric to finish checking in.
As the clerk was handing Eric his keys and receipt, Weber said, "Excuse me, when I checked in yesterday there was a little tray with some dice. I got to roll the dice and I won a coupon book. Does he (pointing to Eric) get to do that?"
The clerk said, "Oh yes - it's right next to this gentleman" (pointing to me).
Eric started to reach for the cup and Weber stopped him with, "But Eric, as a Christian Scientist you're not allowed to touch dice." Mead just stared at him with a "WTF are you talking about?" look on his face.
"Oh that's okay," the clerk said, "anyone can roll them."
With that, I picked up the cup and said, "I just shake them like this and roll?" As I said that, I did a few whip cup-style whips and dumped the dice onto the tray. Four sixes landed beautifully and perfectly.
"Twenty-four!" Weber announced. "What does that get him?"
The clerk stammered, "That's not twenty-four...."
"Sure it is," Michael interrupted, "Six plus six is twelve and twelve times two is twenty-four."
"No, you don't understand, that's four-of-a-kind. You win $100 cash." the clerk responded. She walked away to retrieve a receipt book.
While she did that, Eric finished putting the pieces together in his head. Now he knew why Michael stopped him from shaking the dice and rolling.
The clerk returned, Eric signed for his cash and she handed him a $100 bill. "We'll chop it later" I whispered.
We weren't halfway through the lobby before Eric fished a $50 out of his pocket and handed it to me.

The moral of this story? Although I own several whip cups, the most important element isn't having the exact equipment you need, but understanding the principles at play. Drugstore dice don't have sharp edges so they won't "grab" the sides of the cup like razor-edged casino dice will. That's what the edge work is for - it causes the dice to trip and tumble until the desired sides are all lined up inside the cup. Then the dice stop tumbling and just slide around in an arc. With drugstore dice, you can't go from truly random to a controlled outcome like you can with real whip dice, but if you were placing the dice into the cup on the combinations you wanted (as I was), then there is an excellent chance that they will stay in that orientation during your whipping/shaking action.

I'd bet good money that Burton had long ago figured out that drugstore dice would hold their orientation with a whipping action in one of his straight-sided diner glasses. It wouldn't be a perfect situation for real gambling/cheating, but it would work as a simple demo. It's certainly going to work well enough to fool an 11-year old.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
Bobbycash
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Now that is a fantastic story. I love Weber's line.
Thank you for sharing Jason.
marc_carrion
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Thanks everyone!! that's exactly what I was looking for, not looking for moves to use in a casino, just for basic demonstrations on the bar or during a poker game with friends. Although, making $100 every time I go to the Tropicana would be nice too Smile. I'll try to find some of the books and booklets you all mentioned and start from there.

Marc
MarcoLostSomething
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Some works are described in "A Die of another colour" by Fulves and Gardner, if it may help
Ergerbor
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As far as dice control goes you might want to start with some history:http://www.goldentouchcraps.com/HistoryChannel.shtml I was surprised to learn this was possible but there exist folks who control dice at Craps tables.
Artie Fufkin
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Quote:
I was surprised to learn this was possible but there exist folks who control dice at Craps tables.


Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you've fallen for a load of "crap" (if you will).
Ergerbor
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Artie,

How do you mean? I was certainly incredulous, how do I know it's false? I found the documentary and other scattered references to be fairly convincing but am open to refutations.
Cagliostro
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Dice setting is a scam. It doesn't work.

The only people who make money with dice setting are the people who sell it to the unsuspecting. Since it doesn't work, they get around the law by offering a money back guarantee.

This scam has been discussed at length on this BB. I suggest you do a search to find the relevant posts.
Artie Fufkin
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Quote:
On Jul 25, 2016, Ergerbor wrote:
.... but am open to refutations.


Welcome to the forum.

There's no need to "refute" anything ... the GoldenTouch scam and its ilk are a load of crap.

As Cag noted in his post - do a search of this sub-forum and you'll find out everything you always wanted to know about dice control, and probably more!
Ergerbor
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Roger, will do. I'll take a look. I'll be happily informed about scams. It seemed incredible to me, but not impossible. I look forward to reading more. Thanks.
Artie Fufkin
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Quote:
On Jul 25, 2016, Ergerbor wrote:
....but not impossible.


When it comes to hustling cards and dice, it's never a good idea to declare something "impossible".

But the GoldenTouch business is a scam no different than the Monte, or the Top'n'Ball.
B.W. McCarron
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Quote:
On Jun 6, 2016, JasonEngland wrote:
Marc,

It's important to keep in mind that Shortridge was only 11 years old when he saw that demo with the dice in the diner.

With that in mind, what Karl was describing is almost certainly a "whip cup" scenario. Many people are under the impression that you need a "special" cup and dice with edge work in them to have a whip cup. Not true. Those things help, but they're not absolute necessities.

I once used a standard Yahtzee cup and 4 normal drugstore dice to win $100 for me and Eric Mead at the front desk of the Tropicana hotel in Las Vegas. Eric was checking in and they had a little tray with the cup and dice and a placard:

One pair wins coupon book.
Two pair wins free dinner.
Three-of-a-kind wins tickets to a show.
Four-of-kind wins $100 cash.

So, while Eric was checking in I set the dice in the cup on four sixes. I then looked at Michael Weber who was standing with us and winked. He nodded and we waited for Eric to finish checking in.
As the clerk was handing Eric his keys and receipt, Weber said, "Excuse me, when I checked in yesterday there was a little tray with some dice. I got to roll the dice and I won a coupon book. Does he (pointing to Eric) get to do that?"
The clerk said, "Oh yes - it's right next to this gentleman" (pointing to me).
Eric started to reach for the cup and Weber stopped him with, "But Eric, as a Christian Scientist you're not allowed to touch dice." Mead just stared at him with a "WTF are you talking about?" look on his face.
"Oh that's okay," the clerk said, "anyone can roll them."
With that, I picked up the cup and said, "I just shake them like this and roll?" As I said that, I did a few whip cup-style whips and dumped the dice onto the tray. Four sixes landed beautifully and perfectly.
"Twenty-four!" Weber announced. "What does that get him?"
The clerk stammered, "That's not twenty-four...."
"Sure it is," Michael interrupted, "Six plus six is twelve and twelve times two is twenty-four."
"No, you don't understand, that's four-of-a-kind. You win $100 cash." the clerk responded. She walked away to retrieve a receipt book.
While she did that, Eric finished putting the pieces together in his head. Now he knew why Michael stopped him from shaking the dice and rolling.
The clerk returned, Eric signed for his cash and she handed him a $100 bill. "We'll chop it later" I whispered.
We weren't halfway through the lobby before Eric fished a $50 out of his pocket and handed it to me.

The moral of this story? Although I own several whip cups, the most important element isn't having the exact equipment you need, but understanding the principles at play. Drugstore dice don't have sharp edges so they won't "grab" the sides of the cup like razor-edged casino dice will. That's what the edge work is for - it causes the dice to trip and tumble until the desired sides are all lined up inside the cup. Then the dice stop tumbling and just slide around in an arc. With drugstore dice, you can't go from truly random to a controlled outcome like you can with real whip dice, but if you were placing the dice into the cup on the combinations you wanted (as I was), then there is an excellent chance that they will stay in that orientation during your whipping/shaking action.

I'd bet good money that Burton had long ago figured out that drugstore dice would hold their orientation with a whipping action in one of his straight-sided diner glasses. It wouldn't be a perfect situation for real gambling/cheating, but it would work as a simple demo. It's certainly going to work well enough to fool an 11-year old.

Jason


Awesome story! Thanks for sharing.
The Curator
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Https://youtu.be/nyAn-LOvR9U

I've a 20 show called "Diceman", and based on the Mille/Vernon story.
Most of the routines are on youtube.
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