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Futureal
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I thought it was mostly a waste of time.

You had Michael Finney advertised as doing a talk on one man shows - that turned into a talk just about himself, which sure it's interesting but it's been covered both on his L+L set from the early 2000s and his Penguin Live Lecture from last year. So that was just a repeat of all of that and less than five minutes on actually doing a one man show, which was what was advertised.

You had Fielding West talking about stagecraft, this was good but it was really just a pitch for his stagecraft seminars, which is understandable but you can't even buy them online, they're only done in person. So he touched on a bunch of stuff but if you want the real work on it you have to go to his house in Vegas for a seminar, so that's useless for 90% of the people watching. He spoke about walking out on stage in the correct way for a few minutes and described it but didn't actually SHOW it, live or via video. A bit of planning and thought would have improved this.

Brad Ross, typical huckster stuff, pitching his own products, saying how great he is etc. David Davinci should have known better than to involve this guy. Just run a Café search to see what sort of problems his "Make Magic Money" clients have had dealing with him. And that's the tip of the iceberg, I see complaints about his ethics on Facebook all the time.

McBride, good as always.

Tony Clark, good as always.

Greg Gleason ... well I guess it's easy to finance a touring illusion show if you've got half a dozen friends who will all pitch in five figures to help you out on anything you want to do. That's how he got started he said. So again it was interesting in a biographical way but there's nothing here in terms of business ideas or nuts and bolts stuff. And the 80s called and they want their fashion and hairstyle back as well, Greg desperately needs a makeover.

Chris Randall's talk on overcoming addictions was weird. Go see a doctor if you have problems, not a magician.

For $200, I don't think it was good value. Sure people will say oh if you get one thing from it it's worth it, and yes that's true to a certain extent but look at Penguin Live Lectures ... they're three or four hours long in many instances and it's people tipping entire repertoires etc. If you want business ones then look at Bill Herz' lecture, Oz Pearlmans, Danny Orleans etc, they're full of real world stuff you'll actually use. The price point of those is what, twenty bucks? I'd put a fair price on this year's summit at $50.

Less is more David - if you do one again then work on getting LESS speakers but delivering more CONTENT out of them. If you pitch a speaker as speaking about a certain thing he needs to speak about that not just go into PR mode and talk about his life for 45 minutes, we're magicians we already know who these guys are and what they've done. We want to hear WHY and HOW. That's the point of a entertainers' business seminar.
thomasR
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Did you not watch Bill Gladwell and Garry Carson? Those 2 alone were worth $200 in my book. I agree on Jeff McBride being great, and I agree on Michael Finney being very lackluster (David tried to steer him on topic but he preferred to brag about hanging out with Jay Leno and such).

The Nabil interviews were a bit all over the place, but he gave ALOT of information about 2-walking his show in a resort.

It's fine if you don't like Brad Ross, but to question his business practices seems very unfair. I wasn't able to find anything doing a search on the Café like you suggested.
(Unless you count the cartoon money argument?).

It's odd that you compare the penguin lectures... They cost $20 a piece.... So for $200 you would get 10 lectures. But you say that 25 talks should be $50?
Mindpro
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I know you've mentioned this about Bill Gladwell several times now. What did you find so valuable about this? I found just the opposite as have several others I've discussed this with. Even Bill said his info hasn't been working for him, which is why he is without a gig/venue after trying (his own promoted methods) for over a year, and he seemed very unknowlagble about much of this interview and the questions asked by David. So what was so informative and valuable to you?
thomasR
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The fact that both Bill and David discussed exactly what they tried and how / why (to an extent) it failed. Im surprised you don't see the value in learning about those failures.

Mindpro... Do you feel the Summit as a whole was worth $200?
Dannydoyle
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But what is learned FROM failure and how did you adjust to be successful is what I would think is important. If that is discussed it is gold.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
thomasR
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On Dec 18, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
But what is learned FROM failure and how did you adjust to be successful is what I would think is important. If that is discussed it is gold.


Agreed... that's what they were discussing and they talked about what they were both going to try next. Maybe next year we can find out how that worked out?
Dannydoyle
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I'd be more interested in what has worked in this type of seminar. Not in hopes of what might work.

I mean look at the title of the event. They do sort of set an expectation. I didn't pay so I have no opinion that matters. Based only on what you have stated is all I'm talking about. I am not nor have ever said anything negative about the event.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
thomasR
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Valid point of view...

I don't think the Summit is perfect by any means. I was just shocked to read such a negative review of the summit as a whole.
Mindpro
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On Dec 18, 2017, thomasR wrote:
The fact that both Bill and David discussed exactly what they tried and how / why (to an extent) it failed. Im surprised you don't see the value in learning about those failures.

Mindpro... Do you feel the Summit as a whole was worth $200?



First, yes, I do feel it was worth $200. But I also believe it depends on what you hoped to get from it, your expectations and how much it delivered on those expectations and what you got out of it. I think there could be several things that could be seen as misleading which I can see why several may have felt this way. To me, a Summit is leaders in specific areas on a unified topic or theme. There were many guests, that while I feel might be good or even successful performers, it in no way means they are experts or authorities in what they do to the point of educating, teaching and training others.

Since you asked specifically about Bill, I felt David asked and addressed several great questions that many were asking and seeking answers to only to have Bill not truly answer or address them and in several cases be surprised at the results of others at all. He seemed to not address much specifically and offered only possible thoughts (hmm, is that right?). This is a prime example of someone who last year people were listening to and accepting as an authority who knew what he was talking about. People took this information, spent and invested money and took this information and perhaps tried to do this themselves. I stated at the time it was very minimal and basic info on the topic and much was missing. I think this years showed exactly that and even he didn't have the answers. I also had an extreme example of this in Las Vegas last year from this exact example happening.

The format of most Summits is an event that features a variety of experts speaking on individual topics within a specific format, which in this case was the business of entertainment. It seemed like many were not experts or specialists in their specified areas, but rather just performers that spoke on a specific topic based on their own personal experience. Very few were coaches, trainers, or true authorities in their area of specialty. They just spoke about their own experiences. Yes, others can learn from the stories and experiences of others, but it is nowhere the same as learning from an expert, coach or trainer. Take McBride for example, yes he is a performer, and he is also a coach, teacher, trainer and operated from this perspective. Yet you look at most others, take Gladwell for example, he really only shared his own experience, which was very basic from his very minimal experience. There is a big difference. As he said, he is still struggling with it himself.

Again, to me, I feel the information offered and shared on a Summit should be real, true bankable information taught by experienced and credible leaders, not just performers telling their versions how they did it. I am also surprised that many (other than Brad Ross) didn't have programs, books or trainings available on their topics for a more complete education.

Yes, the failures could have been beneficial IF they broke them down - told what happened and why it failed and what or how to learn from it or how to exactly correct it to get the desired or optimal results.

I agree with Danny, I don't care to hear about what "they might TRY to do next". When offering information/education you should know what went wrong, why and exactly what to do to correct it. I don't care to pay for speculation, I'm paying for correct, real-world, applicable information.

To me, this is the exact same here in Tricky Business. There is advice, insight and information shared from opinion or personal experience, then there is industry-specific information offered and presented from actual real world, continual and consistent experience by those that specialize in educating and training others. Again, two hugely different things.

Nabil's was very hard to listen to, but I'm glad you felt it offered some useful information. Also HOW the information is presented is important and this could have been greatly improved in some of the interviews. It took me days to get through this interview (both parts total). Again, I am positive the reason for this is again, these are not educators or trainers, just performers talking about themselves and their experiences.


Yes, I felt it was worth the price as there was some information that most should have found helpful, and others stories are interesting to others, but not the true reason, purpose or value of a Summit. But I was disappointed in several interviews as well as the information was not what I had expected or believed to be intended.

I think this is one of the reasons it may not have lived up to expectations from some. This combined with the topics of many of the guests often was misleading and not a true coverage of the topic specifically from an entertainment business perspective, could be seen as off-putting for some as we have seen here.

I think this is also part of a larger problem with magic and mentalism. People are listening to other performers attempts and experiences, rather than separating that from learning from those skilled, experienced and specializing in teaching, training and coaching others. Again two hugely different things.
thomasR
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That's an excellent assessment, Mindpro.

To further my thoughts on the Bill and David interview... I agree Bill's not an expert. But Bill and David are both professional entertainers who have attempted to self-produce a 2-wall show. So for me, hearing them discuss these situations in some detail is very interesting and helpful. Same for Nabil, although I agree his interview was difficult to get through.

Is there any material out there by experts on producing your own show?
Christian & Katalina
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Another person's perspective.

I have enjoyed both years of watching the Magic Master Summit. I believe that this might be the way people will experience some "magic conventions" of the future. Many times we just want information. We don't need all of the pomp and circumstance that comes with paying for flight, hotel rooms, food, and all the other expenses that come with a standard magic conventions. Penguin magic has surly changed the Lecture Game with their downloadable lectures. That being said not everything at a magic convention or the Magic Master Summit is going to be a home run for you.

I agree with so much of what mindpro as already stated. Just like magic tricks we so many times want the instant, no effort solution to our problem. What, I might have to practice or gather additional information to make something work? I recently was talking to one young magician who wanted to work on Cruise Ships. I told him about Fred Becker's course. He response was disheartening. "I'm not going to pay $2000 for that, isn't there some $40 book I can buy"? He has not yet learned that you get what you pay for.

The Magic Master Summit is a sampling of ideas and concepts to help magicians grow as a business. No one is going to learn how to set up a specific business model in a short 90 minute video. If that is what you are hoping for then you have over estimated what what is possible. It would be akin to thinking that you will be a master magician after watching a 3 hour DVD set. What the MMS does do is expose you to ideas that you didn't know existed.

Is it worth the $200? yes! Of course, it also depends on where you are in your career path. We are fond of saying in the magic world, "If you get one trick out of the book, then it is worth it". I could easily say the same thing about MMS. If you found one idea that helps you land a single gig worth $1000 then how is it not worth the price?

I did not watch all the classes but I will highlight a couple. Yes, Nabil's classes where a little tough to get through, however, if you paid attention, he gave away a great deal of information. There were so many things he said that were pure gold. He didn't give you a step by step class on how to 4 wall, what he did do is explain many of the aspects that you will need to contend with if you decide to go that route. You can't expect to be spoon fed a business model for $200. But he did give you enough to send you in the right direction.

I did not expect to like Micheal Trixx's lecture. However, I found him extremely likable. His business model is not going to appeal to everyone. However, it is completely doable. Once again, he did not give you a step by step but if you understand the concept, you should be able to figure out the rest on your own. I also completely enjoyed his learning curve on working outdoors. I do not work outdoors but I could easily watch a class from him on that subject.

There was another performer whom I was looking forward to watching, I found him boring and lackluster. I found his information superficial and a bit self aggrandizing. However, I talked with other people who loved his talk. Its all about perspective and where you are on your career arc.

Is it worth $200. Well, many would easily pay $1000 dollars in expenses to go to a magic convention with only a 1/4 of the classes. Soooo . . .
Milbourne Christopher Award for Mentalism 2011
The Annemann Award for Menatalism 2016
Author of "Protoplasm" Close-up Mentalism
Dannydoyle
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On Dec 18, 2017, thomasR wrote:
That's an excellent assessment, Mindpro.

To further my thoughts on the Bill and David interview... I agree Bill's not an expert. But Bill and David are both professional entertainers who have attempted to self-produce a 2-wall show. So for me, hearing them discuss these situations in some detail is very interesting and helpful. Same for Nabil, although I agree his interview was difficult to get through.

Is there any material out there by experts on producing your own show?


I think it is ironic that when we try to discuss the pitfalls of self production here we are met with such resistance and push back and when one pays 200 bucks it is worth listening to. We always get told we are mean or wrong or discouraging new guys. Nobody ever wants to talk about it here.

All anyone wants is to encourage the brotherhood and tell them everything will be OK. You yourself have stomped us out from trying to tell people about what it really takes to self produce.

Several times we have tried to have this discussion and been shut down and told we don't know what we are talking about by the local foremost authority. Again you yourself have participated in shouting us down. Either that or we hear how everyone has an opinion and it is valid.

Is there material out there in self producing? Not anything I would recommend. Most of the material out there might as well be titled "Lightning in a Bottle", because that is what it amounts to. A guy getting lucky and not seeing it as that. Or mommy and daddy gave me money until I was a success. Nothing necessarily wrong with that but it pre supposes having parents or whoever to do so.

Yes in other words you HAD 2 very good sources for self production right here giving it away for free, or trying to for years. Guys who failed WAY more than once. (Well at least I did.) Guys who then tried new ideas and failed. Then learned and went through all that process.

Mindpro covers much of it in coaching I believe. But in spite of that is very generous with information here.

I just tell people when asked. The only problem is being able to listen.

It will be interesting to see the push back this post gets.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
thomasR
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Danny... It's not the pitfalls of self production that some of us (yes me included) push back on... It's when you talk down to others in very degrading way.
One of my first interactions on this part of the board I asked Mindpro a question about a complaint his agency got because a performer didn't do the full act from the demo tape. My answer from Mindpro was that I didn't comprehend the business and the point he was trying to make if I was asking such a question. So yeah, that was my first experience...

It also annoys me when a good conversation is happening... Such as in this thread, and a simple question that I asked is met with a personal attack from you. Was that necessary? Does it further enhance the discussion we were having above? Or does it derail this thread the way most threads get derailed in this section?
Dannydoyle
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It shows the problem with this section. When met with evidence of what you personally do to hamper the very activity you desire you take no responsibility, take no step back, take no time to ponder. You PUSH BACK YET AGAIN.

Now you then tell those who have the information you seek how they must impart it to you. Where does this arrogance come from?

Also I have said a thousand times that tone of a post is added by the reader. What you claim is talking down is a simple recitation of fact. YOU decide it is talking down. Then you further assume it is an attack, and you push back and a thread is derailed.

Does this information enhance this thread? Only if you learn something about the nature of the problem. But if you keep doing what you just did, which is your history, then no. It is up to you. It could enhance every thread here if you and the guys misinterpreting figure this out.

You can hold on to and be angry about your first experience or move on.

Or you can push back harder. Up to you. This has not been an attack but rather a teachable moment.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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On Dec 18, 2017, thomasR wrote:
Is there any material out there by experts on producing your own show?



No, there isn't as far as I'm concerned. The best you may find is what has been discussed, simply someone's own experienced which is almost always limited, incomplete nd usually unstructured. This is why I started a project on this. As with most of my material, they started because nothing decent or real was avaiable on the subject. The one thing that constantly amazed me from everyone I've spoken to on this is the fact that there is not such a resource available. I think this is why I received such praise and support for the project. Unfortunately as Danny so eloquently pointed out, it will not be made available when completed for $40 or $100. In reality such content would be worth far more, which knowing this community, only few would be wiling to support. So then it becomes the question of do I want to go through all of this effort for a small handful that will "get it" and be willing to invest in this information?

In reality this is part of what I have been coaching and training for years, with many paying $10k, $25K or more for, so this also becomes an issue from a business position.

I think this current topic and example also shows that not all information is the same. What two guys offer in a discussion of their limited expeirence and knowlegde is far different from an all-encompassing, systemized content based on decades of real-world, applicable information offered from an industry point of view. The people to study and learn from are not performers who have done or attepted to do their own 2/4 wall deal or self-produced shows, it is the Promoters who's entire existance and operations are based on this day in and day out. In my research for my book and system, Interviewed the guys that first brought the Beatles in Conceet to America/LA, and also who promoted Led Zepplin in first coming to America, the guy who single-ghandedly cretaed the now famosus forumula which made the Harlem Globetrotters a worldwide sensation for nealry 100 years. Elvis' brainchild(s), the Ringling Circus, and many Vegas and Branson celebrities and headliners. These are who you want to learn from. So much of it is who you choose to listen to.

Just for reference I would like to see the thread where I "insulted you" for asking such a question about the demo. I remember the discussion as it happens so rarley and I was sharing a real-world example. Seems to me this was taken out of context the way you detail it, but I would like to revisit it if you would be willing to point it out to me. I think there is a confusion of someone's professional insight being seen or accepted as "a personal attack." This is also sonething you rarely hear from professionals, but seems to happen more from amatuers or those in the beginning stages of our industry, so I would like to see this again as I'm sure you can understand.

I also think what you interpret as "talking down to others" is simply your perception of it, when in relaity it is simply the differnce of people operating on differnet levels. Danny's point comes into play here as well. Only those that get offered or receive such information for free ever complain of this. I deal with any that pay handsomely for such information that never have such thoughts or perceptions. In reality, it is just the opposite. I regularly hear (almost daily) speciifc priase of thanks and the value of the information I'm sharing/willing to share, how it has made them tens of thousands of dollars, a better life for their families, made them better performers, better business men and women, and so much more. They are amazed at the fact there is no negativity, because they see and are invested in the reality not their own uneducated perception of what they think it is. They become emersed in what it really is.

The one thing I hear consistetly is "wow, you are not at all how others on the Café make you out to be." I always only laugh. Reality is often much different that percepton based on incomplete information or opinion.

Another ironic thing to these recent posts in this thread is the inclusion of Christisan and Katalina. Here are two people that changed their entire busiess model to an almost 100% (primarily) 4 walling model. They have been quite successful for obver 5 years now with their show. It is people like this I would study, listen to every word they say, regardless of you it is delivered or interpreted by yourself, as they are the real deal. They know the game pitfalls, warts and all. They would be someone who I would interview and include for my project. The problem is, and might I say this is also one of the most unapreciated and undesappreciated aspect of Danny and myslef here on the Café, is truth be told, most successful people DO NOT want to share ther insight, secrets and knowledge. They have spent years, sometimes decades, not to mention tens or in some cases hundreds of thousands of dollars to learn this themselves the hard way. Do you think they are just willng to give this away just for the asking? Or even for $100 or $1,000? He** no! Most wouldnlt either. This is another reason why when someone with actual experience and the goods is willing to talk or share, it should be identified and you (not just you) should listen to every word offered.

I agree with what Danny said aboui us getting shut down on some very benefical and insightful topics. I have been asked to review Tricky Business for 2017. For the last several weeks I have revisited very single thread from 2017 for this and I saw it more times this year than ever before in the past. Topics that could have offered a plethora and wealth of valuable information, completley shut down becuase of personal opinion, agenda and this type of perceptions.

I also agree that learning entertainment business principles and strategies is much different from learning a trick or effect. And it should be. Business should not be plug and play or self-working as many today think, wish and hope/prefer it should be. It should also not be solely based on one's own personal experience (unless uneathing something revolutionary or completely new) or their personal opinion. 99% of the times one's personal opinions are incomplete and often wrong. Is this what you want our busienss based upon? Incompelte and uneducated, inexperienced opionion? Most when they really and honestly (there's that evasive principle again) get down to it, do not.

I know this came up in the fairs thread this year and I said, yes, what I train, teach and coach is not anything that is commonly out there and the few aspects that are are taken to a ccomplety dffernt level that has never been done before. Some (their personal opinion) failed to believe it. Fine, their loss and limiting beliefs. Yet others were picqued and acted on such interest and I can tell you in the several months since then are now living what they thought to be comletley impossible or "unbelievable" jsut a short time before. As much as many do not weant to hear it, it is their own limiting beliefs, opinions, perceptions and defensiveness that are the greatest factors holding themsleves back and preventing growth or imprvement or success.
Mindpro
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On Dec 19, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
It shows the problem with this section. When met with evidence of what you personally do to hamper the very activity you desire you take no responsibility, take no step back, take no time to ponder. You PUSH BACK YET AGAIN.

Now you then tell those who have the information you seek how they must impart it to you. Where does this arrogance come from?


We must have been posting at the same time. I have also noticed in going back over the year of threads, the CONTEXT (sadly) is also interpreted by the reader. Soooo many times the context was received not as offered or intended, but as interpretd by the reader (opiion over fact again) which cretaes the basis for exactly what you just ststaed above.
thomasR
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Very good points Mindpro.

I'll try to find the thread I referenced... You did eventually answer my question in that thread. And that very idea did help in my communication with Clients and with the artists I hire so they would know what I and the client expected (specific acts, and even specific costumes). This wasn't something that I had entirely overlooked, but I had not put as much attention on until that thread.
thomasR
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Danny.... Ok I'll try to work on that. Deal?
Dannydoyle
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On Dec 19, 2017, thomasR wrote:
Danny.... Ok I'll try to work on that. Deal?


To be fair I don't believe for a second it is only a "you" problem. I believe all of us do it. I believe one other thing we do is bring old grudges to these discussions to one degree or another and that is not helpful in the least.

And again I DO think it helps not only this thread but all of them if this is kept in mind.

But in short deal. But I am saying I will work on it too, not just you if that makes any sense? It won't work if it is a one way street.
Danny Doyle
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WDavis
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Glad to see this thread didn't get derailed like most. It's quite refreshing to see and even prompted me to post while waiting for my flight back to the states. Merry Christmas everyone and happy new year.
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