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Sealegs Inner circle The UK, Portsmouth 2596 Posts |
In trying out a linking coat hanger routine that I've recently been working on I introduced it by talking about, '.... the classic magicians' trick that everyone has probably seen where a magician magically links together some separate solid metal rings.' Surprisingly the general response from the audience at this point was that they weren't familiar with the linking ring trick and didn't recall ever having seen such a trick. The audience demographic was predominantly 50-70 years olds.
There was a time when the Linking Rings was the trick most performed by magicians in a stage/cabaret setting. (According that is to one of Bruce Elliot's books) Are the linking rings now so old they've become new again? Have they been forgotten by those who actually have probably seen them... and maybe genuinely never seen by a younger generation?
Neal Austin
"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw |
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JNeal Inner circle I used to have 999 posts, now I have 1616 Posts |
My thoughts are that each generation experiences classic effects anew... or more accurately every OTHER generation rediscovers them in an apparently 'fresh' way. It is similar to what someone in the music industry said about music: 'each generation replaces what they think is artificial in the previous generation's music with their own brand of insincerity."
As this applies to magic: Traditional linking ring routines (handed for examination and interactive talking) become passe when it becomes the 'norm'. the next generation wants to see something 'new', so the performers oblige by creating silent routines to music. This appears as a new idea for a while, until everyone is doing it! So the next generation of audiences after that, sees that way of presenting as passe... and maybe skips any interest in seeing the linking rings... until a few years later, someone revives them by doing a talking presentation that seems fresh once again. And so classic effects never die, but just keep reinventing themselves to reflect the interests of the current audiences , like a phoenix arising from the ashes. (now there is a trick that hasn't been seen in 40 years: Phoenix ashes!) Here's another way of looking at it: more people are born in any given year, than the number of people (living) who have ever seen the linking rings in any form In the final analysis: a great performer with personality and adequate technique can sell any effect to any audience, but sometimes it is easier when the effect seems fresh.
visit me @ JNealShow.com
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
Hello "1220 posts"!
About 30 years ago at Abbott's GTG, the "RED ASHES" had the biggest revival of ANY of the classics, EVER! At least three times per night for four nights, RED ASHES was performed by various and sundry (!) performers. Whatever dealer made up the stock, probably retired after his sales had skyrocketed. (I don't think that it was Jack Chanin! --Jack never RETIRED.) In those ancient days, the final act on Saturday evening, was always the "FOX FOLLIES". Karrell Fox and Duke Stern starred, with a "supporting cast" of assorted "talent" (?) Roy Kissell, Jay Marshall, Bob Lewis, dick oslund, et al. We would do a burlesque of any acts that had done something, (or, OVERdone something!) We got a trash can, outside, and burned up about 50 lbx of the Colon weekly paper. We filled a dump bag with the ashes and rigged it in the flies, down stage center. After ABOUT 10 minutes of "HELLZAPOPPIN" GAGS, Karrell and Duke did the big finale: RED ASHES! The ashes floated UP, but didn't come back DOWN to be restored!Duke and Karrell stood there looking UP! Backstage, we counted to 10, and pulled the trip cord which dumped about a bushel of ashes on Duke and Karrell. THE LAUGH LASTED 2 MINUTES!!! Ah! Those were the days!
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
Magician's don't actually do the linking rings because it is a lot of work, hours of research, practice, and rehearsal. They are hard to rehearse a well, the wife yelling, stop all that clanging! Just because some sets are sold, does not mean that they will ever use them.
JNeal, is correct, it has to do with the presentation and personality of the performer more then steel rings. When they are handled like a master, they impress. I did the Linking Coat Hangers for a while, it always fell flat for me. I thought a familiar prop, and a familiar experience would be amusing to them. Never happened, and never got an indication that they ever experienced problems with loose coat hangers. I don't think your introduction and relationship to the classic linking rings is a good opening. Concentrate more on the coat hanger and come up with a better opening patter. In that way, when they do link, it should be more surprising to them. The fact that the hangers are not examined in Caveney's routine is the pitfall of the trick, in my opinion. Better to come up with an examination and spectator on stage with you to verify they are ordinary hangers. I am sure any of methods devised with the linking rings can work with the hangers. Caveney devised a routine for magicians, not the general public. It needs a re-working for lay audiences. They must be handled by spectators or audience members. This is what sells the linking of the hangers, and rings as well. Otherwise, it is an artist demonstration, more then a magical happening. |
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Sealegs Inner circle The UK, Portsmouth 2596 Posts |
Personally I don't believe that the linking rings are specifically harder to work, or practice, than a myriad of other routines out there and so I don't buy that as a reason for them not being performed as much as they used to be. And in fact I found the coat hangers with their; front and back and left and right attributes required me to work a lot harder with them than I ever had to with the rings!
Regarding current attitudes and predilections... (and I agree with JNeal that what's passé will come into, and go out of, fashion in a cyclic manner)... I think there is a general perception among many performers and many audiences at the moment that magic that involves objects that look too prop-like are likely to be considered passé. However, despite being obviously firmly in the magic prop category I was wondering whether the Rings might, with their apparent now newness as a trick to audiences, be ripe for revival? I suspect though that the fashion will possibly have to go a bit more around the circle before that becomes the case. Regrading the coat hangers, I have to agree with Bill that mentioning the Rings as part of my introduction to my routine was a bad idea. The premise was pitching was that, as a kid I wanted to perform the 'famous' ring trick but I didn't have any rings... hence the hangers. But that can only work and have any meaning for the audience if they know what the ring trick is... which apparently they don't! So, pre-empting Bill's suggestion, I have indeed been re-writing a 'better opening patter' for my hanger routine. I also agree with Bill that the hangers are much more difficult than the rings to make entertaining and magical. To be fair, even Mike Caveney in the instructions booklet says the same. I've played with the Coat Hangers many times over the years... trying to find a way to make them both magical enough and funny enough for me but unfortunately I'd always failed. And I don't think I'm alone in this. I have seen quite a few youtube performances of people using them, and know of fellow magicians who have worked with them, but I have yet to hear of, or see anyone get the reaction from them that I feel sure they have the potential to create. (Mind you I have never seen Caveney performing with them.) My own hanger routine still has Mike Caveney's routine at it's core but I've stripped it right back to its bare bones. Once the 1st link has happened (unlike the rings) I feel any further links don't bring anything to the routine. I feel something extra has to be made a feature of any further links and I have developed a routine that I think does that. I'm still falling short of having a routine that's both magical and funny enough to make me feel totally happy with it... but for the first time in the maybe 20 years of owning and playing with these hangers I think I now have something that I can put in my act and give some audience time to it allowing me to hopefullyeventually get it to where I want it to be. Onwards and (hopefully) upwards.
Neal Austin
"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw |
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JNeal Inner circle I used to have 999 posts, now I have 1616 Posts |
Dick,
Interesting about the RED ASHES (aka Phoenix Ashes) and a very funny story. The only limiting aspect of the trick is the air conditioning and overhead fans can wreak havoc with the effect. Even a thorough rehearsal can not guarantee that the air conditioning won't 'kick in' at the wrong time. That and the severely limited use of fire onstage now makes this trick a performance rarity. Bill, I agree with all that you wrote. Interestingly, although I became well known (for a brief period of time) among magicians for the two ring routine I did on TV, it was my 8 ring (traditional) routine that I did for years in Hollywood Magic that 'sold' so many sets of rings! It was created for impact on laymen and was virtually 'bulletproof'; no angles, all rings (ostensibly) handed out, and with lots of humor and mystery... effects with those qualities never really become passe'.
visit me @ JNealShow.com
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
I always enjoy the kick of making an audience enjoy this ancient trick "one more time."
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Sealegs Inner circle The UK, Portsmouth 2596 Posts |
JNeal wrote:
Quote:
... effects with those qualities never really become passé. I totally agree and I think this is definitely true for the audiences for live performances. Good stuff that is enjoyed by an audience, whatever it is, remains good stuff and remains enjoyed by audiences. But I'm not so sure whether the same holds true for those people who act as the gate keepers for what appears on the most widely watched medium of TV though. A style, or a format, or perhaps something more general... or something more specific... can become passé by default of simply not ever being seen... until that is, the wheel of fashion turns full circle. Interestingly though, with people now consuming entertainment in a plethora of new and diverse ways maybe the wheel won't take so long to make a complete revolution? I know I for one would love to have seen either JNeal's 2 and 8 ring routines or better still both of them as I'm sure they're both (as we Brits say) 'the dogs xxxxocks'.
Neal Austin
"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw |
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
Mike Caveney's routine is exactly as in the booklet that accompanies the hangers, word for word. As far as his performing personality, it is the same as his other youtube videos, kind of a dull and drab even tempo person. His on stage persona is the same throughout all his routines. I think he depends on the props and what happens to carry his act, that is about the only way I can describe him on stage. In other words, I don't think seeing him performing his Coat Hangers would reveal a secret, why it works for him.
Magician's like it because it is different, he has a couple funny lines, and that is really it. What I don't get, is why audiences do not respond to their experience of tangled coat hangers, we have all experienced it, or are people that neat in handling and storing their hangers, they cannot relate. As far as being passé, there is two ways to present the Linking Rings, with patter that is funny, or with great artistry. I have seen both, and it is the performer every time over the steel rings, and not the prop. |
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
For me, the rings are quintessential magic, elemental and astonishing, full of fun and joy and one of the great dances of the Trickster:
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Sealegs Inner circle The UK, Portsmouth 2596 Posts |
Pop wrote:
Quote:
For me, the rings are quintessential magic, elemental and astonishing, full of fun and joy and one of the great dances of the Trickster I think that's a great way of putting it Pop.... and I believe that this is a fine example of JNeal's point that, for a live audience at least, some routines are never going to feel, or be, passé. In fact I shouldn't have used the word 'passé' as it's the wrong term. it implies a dismissal, or disregard of something because it is no longer perceived as having 'value' and that isn't what I wanted to express. It would have been better phrased had I used the term, 'out of fashion', That expression doesn't carry the implications of something being seen as no longer having the same value as it once did in the way that, 'passé' does. Something that's out of fashion can still thought of or considered to be great and appreciated by all that experience it. A Mary Quant 1960's skirt on a beautiful woman can still cause heads to turn, look fantastic and not seem anachronistic. It might be out of fashion but it's not passé. Neither are the Rings. On a separate point, regarding Mike Caveney as a performer... we all have our own tastes of what we like and don't like but, unlike Bill, I have always found Mike Caveney's performances, his magic, his structuring his onstage persona and his presentations to be anything but 'dull and drab'. In fact for me he more or less completely encapsulates the qualities of the quintessential cabaret/stage magician. I have always found his performance of his magic to be, to use Pop's words, astonishing and full of fun and joy. Consequently I can't help but suspect that he is likely to bring, to his own linking coat hanger routine, the same 'dance of the trickster' that I (if not Bill) feel he brings to all his other material.
Neal Austin
"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw |
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
Mike Caveney has a wonderfully dry approach, and his magic is simple, direct and delightfully off-kilter. His incredible balancing effect with the ring and the coffee cup, and his mind-blowing production of a live full grown chicken in the middle of the audience make his banquet show act one of the best in the world.
His deadpan comedy is character-based and his timing is perfect. I find his presentation engaging and a great backdrop for his mind-bending magic. He is a world-class act in my opinion. |
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
Quote:
On Sep 19, 2016, Sealegs wrote: For a person who never seen Mike Caveney in person, you seem to believe you know what he is like in person. I was just answering your statement with the best descriptive words available at the time. Think of the words as on the light side, not as a degrading manner at all. I was attempting to describe a personality, in more words then nice or good. I have seen Mike in person several time in my life and have always enjoyed his performances. I have also met him in person, and his personality is exactly the same as his stage persona. Now before you misread those words, it is meant is he is one person with one personality, on and off stage. What I was alluding to was he is not a jumping around zany performer, such as yourself, from your YouTube videos. He does not pull down his pants, either. He is sophisticated performer. His material is very original and unique. But even in his hands his coat hanger routine, does not pull down the house like his other effects. His scissors through coat, is wonderful, his rising toilet paper is superior and very magical, and mystifying, his juggling is fun to watch. I even seen his original thimble act back in the late 1960's, and talk about original, and he was a superior performer of manipulation magic as well. He is what I call a real performer on stage, and the kind of performer I like to watch over all the modern so called magicians. Who don't know how to dress, or perform magic as it should be presented. Sealegs, maybe you should read the words and think before you jump to conclusions. |
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Harry Murphy Inner circle Maryland 5444 Posts |
Before Mike Caveney's version of the linking Coat Hangers with the hack-saw gag, etc. There was the old John Stanfield's Linking Coat Hangers (circa 1956) using eight, black, simple, wire coat (actually shirt) hangers. I never see him getting credit for coming up with the clever manner of gimmicking the hanger. His routine was easily identified with by an audience. They were normal looking hangers getting tangled and untangled seemingly by magic. John taught me the routine in maybe 64 or 65. I used it for a few years and them moved to a Standard set of linking rings after seeing the brilliant Richard Ross routine.
I think the performer (hear me Dick?) and not the props get the job done. I have watched Pop's routine hundreds of times and laugh and am amazed again and again. It is so second nature and polished and so character driven that it simply works! There are performers doing the rings (and the hangers) that bore me to tears. I might even be one of those performers. The fault is not in the prop (as Pop so ably demonstrates) but in the performer. Rings, heart shapes, star shapes, hangers (wire and thick aluminum), 8", 10', 15" 24" or even Hula Hoops (whatever) all work in the hands of a master. Otherwise...
The artist formally known as Mumblepeas!
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
CERTAINEMENT, HARRY!
It's the PERFORMER (and his/her PRESENTATION) NOT THE PROP(S)! Over the years, when I would meet the principal with my little 13" x 20" x 8" case, and waiter's tray stand in my hands (for many years, I also had a small livestock case) he/she would ask, "Is THAT all you have?", I would point to the grand piano on the stage (with, often a violin lying on top of it) and respond, "Which of those instruments produces the better music?' The principal would respond, "They both produce beautiful music, if they're played by a good musician!" --And, I would say, with a smile, "So, it's the ARTIST, NOT THE INSTRUMENT!" When the comment card was received by my manager, it would often "say": "Very entertaining, AND, very informative! --An artist!!!" I was never "at liberty"! The Lyceum managers would call ME, to ask when I had open time! I played MANY repeat dates. The "office" would send me in to a school to "square the beef" when a previous program had NOT pleased! ENTERTAINMENT does not "come" by the "yard" or the "pound", ENTERTAINMENT is "measured" by the "oohs and ahs! the giggles and the laughs"! I've told this before. I had never owned a set of rings, until Jay returned from buying an estate, with a set of 10" Merv Taylor rings. He gave me the "friendly" price. I played with them all summer, and worked out a 5 ring routine. I tried it in the high schools that fall. WOW! Within two weeks, it was strong enough to close the program! A couple of years later, Karrell Fox gave me his routine (three rings). (Two less to carry!) I've almost worn out those three rings! Then Hersy Basham showed me Pop Haydn's masterpiece! Too late! I couldn't "unlearn" Karrell's! I did see Brother John do Pop's in a Renaissance Fair in Bloomington, Minnesota! DELIGHTFUL!!! YUP! --The PERFORMER (and his PRESENTATION) NOT the PROP(S)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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Rainboguy Inner circle 1915 Posts |
Quoting Pop Haydn.......
"Mike Caveney has a wonderfully dry approach, and his magic is simple, direct and delightfully off-kilter. His incredible balancing effect with the ring and the coffee cup, and his mind-blowing production of a live full grown chicken in the middle of the audience make his banquet show act one of the best in the world. His deadpan comedy is character-based and his timing is perfect. I find his presentation engaging and a great backdrop for his mind-bending magic. He is a world-class act in my opinion." Pop: One of THE GREATEST TRICKS I EVER SAW IN MY LIFE was Mike's toilet paper trick which he did at The Faucett Ross Magic Fest in June, 1983. My jaw dropped!!! I totally agree with you (as usual) regarding Mike Caveny being a world-class act!!! |
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
I wouldn't call Mike Caveney dry, more like mellow.
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Frank Simpson Special user SW Montana 883 Posts |
When I first started in magic, when the earth was cooling, my "pet" effect was Zombie, and I still get a lot of mileage out of it when conditions allow. I got my first set of 8" rings a few years later and I practiced them for about a year before I performed them. My routine was mediocre at best and I considered myself lucky to have survived the ordeal.
A few years later I started over and developed a six-ring routine based on Vernon's Symphony of the Rings that was very well received. I upgraded to a 10" set of SUDS rings that I used for a few decades. When I became consciously aware of the fact that I NEVER do a show without the rings, I decided to splurge and get myself a set of Owen rings. My routine has remained virtually unchanged since about 1984. My assistant hated the routine because she could recite it from backstage almost as well as I. But the reason the routine remains unchanged is because it lands with my audiences. EVERY time. There is some intangible connection that I have with my routine that makes it likable, and that is why I perform them. At every show I do. Because my audiences, for whatever reason, really get a kick out of them. They have never seemed old or outdated because I treat my audience with respect, and the rings with respect. |
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Sealegs Inner circle The UK, Portsmouth 2596 Posts |
Yeah I totally get that Frank. I seems that everyone in this thread, including me, agrees that the rings can have as much of an impact on today's audiences as they ever have had in the past.
But not so many years ago I used to make reference to the magicians classic of the rings within my show and I'd always see signs of acknowledgement, understanding and recognition on people's faces as to what I was talking about. Introducing the coat hangers into my act and making a similar reference made me aware that the audiences I've recently been working for no longer recognise, by immediate association, that this classic is something magician's do. Thinking on this further I wasn't surprised when I considered that despite having seen a large number of stage and cabaret magic shows over the last 10 or so years I didn't ever recall having seen anyone perform the linking rings. I don't see this as being good, or bad, or even lamentable in any way... or that it impacts on any performer who features a ring routine (unless maybe there's someone out there hoping to get a TV spot doing such a routine) because as you and others have pointed out a good ring routine is as magical. entertaining and impactful as it has ever been.
Neal Austin
"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw |
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Sealegs Inner circle The UK, Portsmouth 2596 Posts |
I thought this thread, started by Bill, was worth linking to within this thread.
Neal Austin
"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw |
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