The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Fellowship of Christian Magicians! » » Are Catholic Christians welcome in FCM? (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

BCE
View Profile
Regular user
156 Posts

Profile of BCE
What if I don't believe the Bible to be the only inspired infallible Word of God?

Also, what if (going along with this FCM statement of faith) do I agree with this statement (which I don't), would my statement of faith be disqualified for using Scripture from a Catholic Bible, which includes the Deutero-canonical books of the Bible? Not all Christians use the NLT or KJV -- there's also the NAB and the Douay Rheimes. Does FCM accept these translations to be infallible, too?

I'd be curious to know if there's a more *inclusive* magicians group that doesn't discriminate. My own firsthand experience is that both the IBM and SAM are far more inclusive and accepting of Catholics than FCM seems to be -- in IBM's case, the archive of TLR (40's/50's-era and earlier) is a treasure chest of Gospel magic.
Hakaput
View Profile
New user
63 Posts

Profile of Hakaput
BCE, While not more inclusive there is a Catholic Magicians Guild. Unfortunately it is very small and does not have many meetings. But at least in a spiritual manner you could get support from fellow Catholic Magicians.



I need to take a bit of time to ponder your objection to the the statement of faith of the FCM. So don't take what I am about to say as absolutely (infallibly) correct.

It seems to me that Scripture is truly the "only inspired Word of God" that meaning all of the books including the deuterocanonical books (or apocryphal books as our protestant brothers would call them)

I assume your hesitation comes from Papal infallibility, and the other forms of infallibility the Church professes. But while these forms of infallibility are inspired by the Holy Spirit's guidance of the Church, these are not THE Word of God. Rather they are teachings and guidance.

Word of God meaning Jesus Christ who was in the beginning and the Scriptures which are in a unique way is truly Gods Words poured fourth for us men.

Magisterial document while they can infallibly proclaim a truth is not the same as the inspired word of God. If you read those documents while you my greatly benefit, but you would not be reading words that are inspired by God. Rather you would be reading words that God allows to express the truth. One further note on the infallibility of the church, probably more for the sake of our Protestant brothers than for yourself. Not everything that Magisterium of the Church puts out is infallible, only things that are concerning faith and morals AND are intended to be proclaimed infallibly.



In other words I think as a Catholic it is fair to say "the Bible is the only inspired infallible Word of God" as long as you are not denying the infallibility of the Church and recognizing the unique way in which the Scripture is truly THE Word of God.



Now I have not yet join FCM either so I also cannot say what the FCM actually means with its statement of faith, though with just the wording of it I don't think it is necessary to oppose it as a Catholic

But again I need more time to really think on and investigate this. But if your objections are different than what I assumed they are please let me know so I can ponder that them as well.
BCE
View Profile
Regular user
156 Posts

Profile of BCE
Quote:
On Nov 20, 2016, Hakaput wrote:


I assume your hesitation comes from Papal infallibility, and the other forms of infallibility the Church professes. But while these forms of infallibility are inspired by the Holy Spirit's guidance of the Church, these are not THE Word of God. Rather they are teachings and guidance.


My hesitation has more to do with the obvious question of: how were Christians "saved" before the printing press was invented if there were no Bibles in circulation?

Are FCM members permitted to believe in the Communion of Saints? Apostolic Tradition? (That's Capital-T Tradition, not lower-case "t" tradition.) If I happened to have a rosary with me while at FCM functions, or a Mother Angelica book, would I be treated like a Satanist?

At a time when fraternal organizations (including IBM and SAM) are losing members to YouTube and social media, FCM is the only organization whose objectives alienate and exclude Catholic Christians. That seems really stupid to me. Really stupid.
Hakaput
View Profile
New user
63 Posts

Profile of Hakaput
The mission statement I found for the FCM is as follows:

I have received Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior and believe the Bible to be the only inspired infallible Word of God. I believe that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin and He died on the cross as the only atonement for our sins; that He rose from the dead; that He ascended to the Father’s right hand in Heaven, and will one day come back for those who trust in Him. As a member of this Fellowship, I commit myself to: (1) reaching lost souls and encouraging growth in the body of Christ through the use of such talents as magic, ventriloquism and associated arts; (2) diligently be a more proficient performer with these talents; and (3) carefully uphold the code of ethics of the magic profession (related to exposure of magical effects and ideas).”

It does not seem to me that the wording focuses on the Bible for salvation, but rather Jesus as Lord and savior who died on the cross as the only atonement for our sins.
While as Catholic we don't tend to use the phrase personal lord and savior the concept is still true. And it is also true that though Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is where we are given forgiveness of sins and thus are offered our salvation. Though that forgiveness is now given most assuredly and fittingly in the sacrament of reconciliation (confession).

While Saints, devotions, devotionals (like the rosary), and Apostolic Tradition. Can help bring us closer to God it is ultimately God who saves and redeems us.

So again it does not seem to me that just in the wording of the statement of faith that the FCM puts fourth is opposed to Catholics.

But also again I have not actually joined then so I cannot speak for the FCM as a whole, or individual local chapters, or individual persons in how they may treat Catholics and the differences in theology that Catholics have.
BCE
View Profile
Regular user
156 Posts

Profile of BCE
Quote:
On Nov 21, 2016, Hakaput wrote:
The mission statement I found for the FCM is as follows:

"... and believe the Bible to be the only inspired infallible Word of God...”

...
So again it does not seem to me that just in the wording of the statement of faith that the FCM puts fourth is opposed to Catholics.


From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
108. Still, the Christian faith is not a "religion of the book." Christianity is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word is incarnate and living". If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/ar......c2a3.htm

This directly contradicts the notion that the Bible is the *only* inspired infallible Word of God.
Hakaput
View Profile
New user
63 Posts

Profile of Hakaput
BCE I will honestly say I tried to find a way to make the statement of faith work, but I must concede. You are right if you keep strictly the words statement of faith a good Catholic could not join the FCM.

Hopefully someone who is actually apart of FCM could speak more into or clarify the meaning.
The thread "Question about the statement of faith required" (which I noticed you found) makes it look pretty clear that such a clarification probably doesn't exist and that the statement, while not necessarily intending to, is against Catholic theology to the point that a Catholic could not rightfully hold the statement of faith.

If a FCM member would like to comment on this issue please do.
harris
View Profile
Inner circle
Harris Deutsch
8606 Posts

Profile of harris
BCE

May God continue to bless you and your gifts.

Please let me know if I can help.
I have shared my Testimony as Dr. Or Brother
Laugh at Catholic to Evangelicals.
Over the years I have used more testimony and less props.
Usually the group will give me a scripture to go off of.

At a gathering of Alcohol and Drug Treatment I shared a talk on Spirituality and Recovery.
The Latin word for Spirits(alcohol) is sometimes used to fill the place of the Holy Spirit.

There was a Mother Superior there who was reacting to a bit.
I couldn't resist saying -
She's not heavy
She's my mother.
The audience was of the right age to get a good laugh and connection.

I have also been blessed to share my testimony behind the walls.
Got special permission from a state warden to bring my straight jacket.
Horse Hypodermic Needle through the arm was out.
Love and prayers

Harris Smile
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com
music, magic and marvelous toys
http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u
Big Bad Baz
View Profile
New user
18 Posts

Profile of Big Bad Baz
You could join The Christian Magicians UK without any issues. www.christianmagiciansuk.org
0pus
View Profile
Inner circle
New Jersey
1630 Posts

Profile of 0pus
To answer the original question, "Are Catholic Christians welcome in FCM?" I would have to say that the answer is a resounding, "NO."

This phrase in the FCM Statement of Faith

Quote:

. . . and believe the Bible to be the only inspired infallible Word of God . . .

is pointed directly at Catholics.

I believe it is designed specifically to exclude Catholics, who were regarded as pariahs in the old American South.
MagicBus
View Profile
Inner circle
Kalamazoo, Michigan
2618 Posts

Profile of MagicBus
Sorry Opus, I would have to respectfully disagree. I know Catholics are welcomed at any FCM meeting event/seminar/conference/meeting. I have never heard or witnessed anything else since I became a member of the FCM about 1970. I am not questioning your opinion for sure, but I can assure you most of us I'd hope are not viewing anyone of any faith as a "pariah" other than we are all pariahs before Christ rescued us from ourselves. Most of my dear and giving family are Catholic, and they love me in spite of myself evening begging me to share "Gospel magic" at our annual Christmas feast in Ann Arbor. That is a wonderful treat/honor for me personally.

You may have another experience, but I have never heard of that before. I personally have met some of the original FCM Presidents, they were wonderful Godly magicians/performers whose main purpose in life was spreading The Good News. I don't know if that helps, I am not sure who even wrote the simple "Statement of Faith" a zillion years ago- even I was not around then.
0pus
View Profile
Inner circle
New Jersey
1630 Posts

Profile of 0pus
So you are suggesting that all FCM members should read "and believe the Bible to be the only inspired infallible Word of God" out of the FCM Statement of Faith?
MagicBus
View Profile
Inner circle
Kalamazoo, Michigan
2618 Posts

Profile of MagicBus
I am an FCM member, but have never been an elected officer. I know virtually nothing about specific "Catholic" theology v. "Protestant" theology regarding the Bible being the only inspired Word of God. I concede too that Hakaput made a good/valid observation.
Terry Holley
View Profile
Inner circle
1701 Posts

Profile of Terry Holley
Quote:
On Mar 1, 2017, 0pus wrote:
To answer the original question, "Are Catholic Christians welcome in FCM?" I would have to say that the answer is a resounding, "NO."

This phrase in the FCM Statement of Faith

Quote:

. . . and believe the Bible to be the only inspired infallible Word of God . . .

is pointed directly at Catholics.

I believe it is designed specifically to exclude Catholics, who were regarded as pariahs in the old American South.

So what other than the Bible is "the only inspired infallible Word of God?"
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
0pus
View Profile
Inner circle
New Jersey
1630 Posts

Profile of 0pus
The point is not that there is something other than the bible that is the only inspired infallible Word of God. The point is that the bible is not the only source of the inspired infallible Word of God. In some Christian sects, including Catholicism, Tradition is also recognized as a source of the inspired infallible Word of God.

But, then again, I think that the text is also a swipe at the doctrine of papal infallibility.
Terry Holley
View Profile
Inner circle
1701 Posts

Profile of Terry Holley
Quote:
On Mar 2, 2017, 0pus wrote:
The point is not that there is something other than the bible that is the only inspired infallible Word of God. The point is that the bible is not the only source of the inspired infallible Word of God. In some Christian sects, including Catholicism, Tradition is also recognized as a source of the inspired infallible Word of God.

But, then again, I think that the text is also a swipe at the doctrine of papal infallibility.


The Statement of Faith asks that the applicant believe that the Bible is "the only inspired infallible Word of God." Although you state that, "Tradition is also recognized as a source of the inspired infallible Word of God," I'm interested in documentation from a Catholic reference that states that anything other than the Bible, the written Word of God, is infallible AND inspired; especially inspired (theópneustos = "God-breathed").

For example, even though the Catholic Church highly values the writings of the Church Fathers, per Pope Leo XII the Church does not consider those writings to be infallible. If there is nothing else that is considered to be "the only inspired infallible Word of God," then it appears to me that the Statement of Faith in regard to the Bible is not anti-Catholic.
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
0pus
View Profile
Inner circle
New Jersey
1630 Posts

Profile of 0pus
Terry Holley
View Profile
Inner circle
1701 Posts

Profile of Terry Holley
Quote:
On Mar 3, 2017, 0pus wrote:
Try this: https://www.catholic.com/tract/papal-infallibility


First, I believe I made a typo in referring to Pope Leo. I'm pretty sure it should be Pope Leo XIII, not XII. I don't have access to my references right now.

Second, this discussion really isn't about the infallibility of the Pope. It is about what is the "only infallible inspired Word of God." The article that you appealed to really doesn't deal with inspiration. The question here is, what other than the Bible is the "only infallible inspired Word of God"? Are you proposing that when the Pope speaks "ex cathedra" his statements are inspired exactly like the Bible is inspired (2 Timothy 3:16)?

I'm having a hard time finding any Catholic resource that proposes any thing other than the Bible as the "only infallible inspired Word of God."
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
0pus
View Profile
Inner circle
New Jersey
1630 Posts

Profile of 0pus
Maybe we are quibbling about semantics.

I read the statement of faith, required of members in the FCM, specifically to cite a core belief that is contrary to the doctrinal principals of the Catholic Church. I believe that subscription to such core belief is directed at other Christian beliefs, specifically orthodox and Roman Catholicism.

I am speaking of Sacred Tradition, but I am also concerned that the statement of faith is an attempt to exclude Catholics from the FCM.

Regarding Sacred Tradition, read here: http://www.catholicbible101.com/sacredtradition.htm

I am disinclined to address Catholic doctrine any further with you.
jamiedoyle
View Profile
Elite user
Lafayette, IN
468 Posts

Profile of jamiedoyle
If the doctrinal statement doesn't fit, it doesn't fit. I don't believe It's an attempt to exclude any specific group, sect or denomination. There are numerous organizations that have a fairly inclusive doctrinal statements, yet there will always be those who won't feel that they would fit comfortably in any number of those organizations because they cannot "square" their personal beliefs of the beliefs of the church which they belong.

If the FCM is not a good fit -- it's not a good fit.
Jamie Doyle

jamiedoyle.com
jamiedoyle
View Profile
Elite user
Lafayette, IN
468 Posts

Profile of jamiedoyle
Please understand: I don't speak for the leadership of the FCM -- I'm just a very involved member. Perhaps President, Steve Varro or another leader who could speak to this could be alerted and comment here.
Jamie Doyle

jamiedoyle.com
Steve Varro
View Profile
Regular user
Nashville TN.
116 Posts

Profile of Steve Varro
In answer to the question "Are Catholic Christians welcome in the FCM" As the international president, and a member for over 40 years. I would answer that with a resounding YES!

Before I go into more of an explanation, allow me to ask; Would I be allowed to be a member of the Catholic Magicians Guild, or the Morman Magicians Guild, or the Jewish Magicians Guild? If not, it would not be an effort by them to keep ME out, but in a way the result is the same. I also can not join the Miss American Beauty Pagent either. Is that Male Bashing? Of course not. Every organization has rules and requirements. To be a Boy Scout I must be a boy, of a certain age. That is not a statement pointing against girls or younger boys. The just have rules and requirements. I've made choices in my life that will exclude me from being members of various groups, but that is not the fault of the organizations. When it comes to my denominational faith, I made my choices and I will stand up for them. If joining an organization, even the FCM, is more important than my denominational choice, then maybe I need to rethink my beliefs.

The FCM does not try to be the policemen of the magic world. Our statement of faith is not written in opposition to any organization or group. What we have said is that if you can sign our Statement of Faith you can become a member. If you are a Catholic and do not feel comfortable signing the Statement of Faith, we respect that and want you to know that you are still welcome to attend our conventions as a non member. If, as a Catholic you have no trouble signing the Statement of Faith, we welcome you as a member with opened arms. One of my favorite members from the 70s and 80s was Sister Cabrini, a Catholic Nun. If you ask other members from back then, I assure you they would all have wonderful things to say about her.

If you do not feel that you and the FCM, or any other organization, are in agreement, then why on earth would you even want to be a member of such a group? I hope to see you at our international convention in Indianapolis this June. God Bless you all.
STILL In HIS service

Steve Varro

International President of FCM

Owner/Dock Haley Gospel Magic Co.
jamiedoyle
View Profile
Elite user
Lafayette, IN
468 Posts

Profile of jamiedoyle
Great insight Steve!

Sister Cabrini came to numerous events and outreaches when I was kid growing up in Minnesota.
Jamie Doyle

jamiedoyle.com
Steve Varro
View Profile
Regular user
Nashville TN.
116 Posts

Profile of Steve Varro
I've been thinking about all the comments here and I would like to respectfully ask; What Word of God, other than the Bible, is infallible? or let me ask it another what; What are some other Words of God?

Thank you.
STILL In HIS service

Steve Varro

International President of FCM

Owner/Dock Haley Gospel Magic Co.
Terry Holley
View Profile
Inner circle
1701 Posts

Profile of Terry Holley
Quote:
On Mar 7, 2017, Steve Varro wrote:
I've been thinking about all the comments here and I would like to respectfully ask; What Word of God, other than the Bible, is infallible? or let me ask it another what; What are some other Words of God?

Thank you.

Basically the same question I asked. I'm going to pose the question to various online Catholic sites to see how they respond. I really want to know.
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
BCE
View Profile
Regular user
156 Posts

Profile of BCE
Quote:
On Mar 7, 2017, Steve Varro wrote:
I've been thinking about all the comments here and I would like to respectfully ask; What Word of God, other than the Bible, is infallible? or let me ask it another what; What are some other Words of God?

Thank you.


What Word of God, other than the Bible, is infallible? Easy answer: All the oral teachings and tradition (both little-"t" tradition and big-"T" Tradition) that preceded the invention of the printing press -- because how would Christian have known the Word of God before the printing press made Bibles available? The FCM Statement of Faith essentially asks Catholic Christians to approve the "sola scriptura" (Bible only) view of faith. Anything that looks like sola scripura, feels like sola scriptura...is problematic for Catholic Christians.

"And we also thank God . . . that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God." (1 Thess. 2:13)
Terry Holley
View Profile
Inner circle
1701 Posts

Profile of Terry Holley
Quote:
On Mar 11, 2017, BCE wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 7, 2017, Steve Varro wrote:
I've been thinking about all the comments here and I would like to respectfully ask; What Word of God, other than the Bible, is infallible? or let me ask it another what; What are some other Words of God?

Thank you.


What Word of God, other than the Bible, is infallible? Easy answer: All the oral teachings and tradition (both little-"t" tradition and big-"T" Tradition) that preceded the invention of the printing press -- because how would Christian have known the Word of God before the printing press made Bibles available? The FCM Statement of Faith essentially asks Catholic Christians to approve the "sola scriptura" (Bible only) view of faith. Anything that looks like sola scripura, feels like sola scriptura...is problematic for Catholic Christians.

"And we also thank God . . . that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God." (1 Thess. 2:13)


And what exactly are those oral teachings and tradition that are infallible and inspired outside of the Bible? I surmise that they are now written down and available to read. I can't seem to find anything on this and no one is directing me to a source to read them. I'm not sure it's as easy as you state.
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
ChrisMcHugh
View Profile
New user
1 Post

Profile of ChrisMcHugh
I'm a little confused by this topic. As a Catholic, who has work in Youth Ministry for eleven years, I see no issue here. We believe the Scripture to be the word of God. Even the quote from the Catechism supports this.

108. Still, the Christian faith is not a "religion of the book." Christianity is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word is incarnate and living". If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."

I understand this to say that we must live the scripture. The Catholic Church does not teach Papal Infallibility to be the word of God; Although I will be open to correction, my understanding is that Infallibility merely means that if Church doctrine is questioned, the Pope has the final say in the interpretation?

Either way I think Steve Varro has settled this - Catholics are welcome, and you need to make the personal choice if you are comfortable with it.

Chris Smile
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Fellowship of Christian Magicians! » » Are Catholic Christians welcome in FCM? (1 Likes)
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2017 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.27 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL