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Chris Inner circle lybrary.com 1178 Posts 
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I agree that it is silly to compare the research into Erdnase with curing diseases or other life changing research. It is certainly not of the same importance, not even close. But that doesn't mean to find out who Erdnase was is useless. Understanding history is a worthwhile pursuit.
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Merc Man Inner circle NUNEATON, Warwickshire 2538 Posts
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Understanding history (sometimes sadly not learning from it) is one thing.
However, I don't think discovering who Erdnase was is going to stop wars, cure cancer, end famine and de-nuclearise the planet. The funniest scenario of course would be that Erdnase was just some complete random.......causing the Erdnase community to stand, jaws dropped, saying "who the fkkk was he"? By the way, I've absolutely nothing against older literature. Expert Card Technique was my first bible - and for what its worth, I truly believe its' content and quality to bury some of the utter tripe in EATCT.
Barry Allen
Over 15 years have now passed - and still missing Abra Magazine arriving every Saturday morning. |
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Leo H Inner circle 1334 Posts
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On Jun 12, 2018, Merc Man wrote:However, I don't think discovering who Erdnase was is going to stop wars, cure cancer, end famine and de-nuclearise the planet. But nobody ever claimed that discovering Erdnase would stop wars, cure cancer, end famine,disease, and rid the planet of nuclear weapons. That doesn't mean scholars should stop looking for his true identity, or quit looking for that other writer who might have written Shakespeare's plays. By your logic Merc Man, what is the point in another biography of Winston Churchill? Let the diplomats, doctors, and scientists worry about that other pesky stuff. |
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Cristian Vidrascu New user 36 Posts
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What magic books did Gallaway have in his library? I can't think of any serious fan of magic who doesn't have at least a few books on the subject.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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How much background is there on the folks who did the printing?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Chris Inner circle lybrary.com 1178 Posts
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On Nov 18, 2019, Cristian Vidrascu wrote: Sorry for the late reply, I am just seeing this now. We know that Gallaway had a first edition of "Expert at the Card Table" and several other books on gambling because copies of these books were found in the 1950s that had Gallaway's bookplate in them. Unfortunately, we don't know the titles of the other gambling books. Jay Marshall, who reported on these findings in a letter to Martin Gardner, did not specify the titles.
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Chris Inner circle lybrary.com 1178 Posts
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On Nov 28, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote: There is actually quite a lot of knowledge about James McKinney, who did the printing of "Expert at the Card Table". Many years ago, Richard Hatch researched James McKinney extensively. Tom Sawyer found items about the printer. A few years ago, I discovered the James McKinney bankruptcy files which tell us a lot about the printer, and even list his employees, assets, etc. For more details see https://www.lybrary.com/the-james-mckinn......390.html
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gregg webb Inner circle 1564 Posts
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From the new research on Erdnase, an interesting find has emerged. It seems that Erdnase wrote another book but under a different pseudonym, and it is a book of stories about a travelling gambler. It is called Jack Pots. The pseudonym of the writer is Eugene Edwards this time. There are no "moves" or magic tricks, but are stories only, which still is interesting for possible patter or presentational gambits. Also, lovers of Erdnase will like to know that he wrote another book.
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Leo H Inner circle 1334 Posts
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On Aug 4, 2022, gregg webb wrote: Also, lovers of Erdnase will like to know that he wrote another book. It's just speculation that Erdnase wrote another book. We still don't conclusively know the identity of Erdnase, so how can we be sure he authored other volumes? Chris has absolutely no definitive evidence on anything. He discovered that Gallaway owned a copy of The Expert, and then created an Erdnase narrative around him. |
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Chris Inner circle lybrary.com 1178 Posts
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On Sep 4, 2022, Leo H wrote: Not true. That was discovered by Jay Marshall in the 50s, not me. He also discovered that Gallaway had several other books on gambling. But I did discover that Gallaway was a circus performer during the 1890s doing Punch & Judy and magic. So here you have a circus performer who has magic and gambling books in his library, one of which is EATCT. That is more than one can say about Sanders or E.S. Andrews. They did not have magic and gambling books in their libraries as far as we know, and they were not performers let alone perform magic.
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Leo H Inner circle 1334 Posts
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Yes and you discovered what Jay Marshall had already learned about Gallaway. So in a sense you discovered that piece of information.
Sanders WAS a gambler, so any evidence of gambling books he might have owned is irrelevant. I would put more weight on having been a gambler, especially one who lost at the gaming table as Erdnase admitted to in the book. Sanders was indeed a gambler who had racked up gambling debts, as well as being familiar with card magic. Given the uncanny writing style similarities between Sanders, and Erdnase, I'd put my money on him. |
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Chris Inner circle lybrary.com 1178 Posts
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On Sep 8, 2022, Leo H wrote: I don't think 'discover' is the right word since this information was published in "The Man Who Was Erdnase" and was readily available to the Erdnase community. But I would say I was the first to understand the importance of it and followed up to investigate Gallaway deeper and then found out lots of interesting things about him. Quote:
On Sep 8, 2022, Leo H wrote: Sanders was a gambler, as many millions of people were back then. It was a fairly widespread vice. But many who gambled never looked into a single book on gambling. Erdnase is not just a gambler, he wrote a book about it, and perhaps more importantly he writes that he extensively read the available literature. Thus one expects that this person has an extensive library of magic and gambling books. This is therefore much more identifying than merely being known to gamble. Thus the possession of magic and gambling books is more relevant to the identification of Erdnase.
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Leo H Inner circle 1334 Posts
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On Sep 8, 2022, Chris wrote: Sanders was a gambler, as many millions of people were back then. It was a fairly widespread vice. But many who gambled never looked into a single book on gambling. Erdnase is not just a gambler, he wrote a book about it, and perhaps more importantly he writes that he extensively read the available literature. Where in The Expert did Erdnase say he had read the available literature? Can you provide a page number and quote? And what literature to be precise? Sanders was a member of the Silver Bow Club in Butte, Montana, a private gaming house for the upper strata of Butte society. We know definitively that he was a gambler. We also know from a purchase receipt of six playing card decks right before an 1896 camping trip to the Colorado Rockies that he was serious about handling playing cards. This goes way beyond owning some books on gambling in your library. If Gallaway had purchased six decks of playing cards you would have shouted it from the rooftops as undeniable evidence of his authorship of The Expert. But...it wasn't Gallaway that purchased those six decks of playing cards, it was Sanders. |
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Chris Inner circle lybrary.com 1178 Posts
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On Sep 10, 2022, Leo H wrote: Here you go. (You might want to read Erdnase carefully. You don't seem to be really familiar with his book.) Quote:
"Works on conjuring invariably devote much space to the consideration of card tricks, and many have been written exclusively for that purpose, yet we have been unable to find in the whole category more than an incidental reference to any card table artifice; and in no instance are the principal feats even mentioned." - Expert, p. 13 These statements imply that Erdnase extensively read the available magic and gambling literature. Quote:
On Sep 10, 2022, Leo H wrote: Back in those days, almost everybody played cards. It was the primary way to pass time, socialize, and just have a good time. Consequently, many people bought decks or brought decks to play cards. It is not a particularly identifying trait because so many did it. The fact that somebody played cards and gambled is not a particularly strong identifier for Erdnase.
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Leo H Inner circle 1334 Posts
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I'm not a gambling man but I'd bet I'm more familiar with the book than you are. I don't see any reference to gambling books in any of the quotes you provided. Erdnase is referencing books on card magic--not gambling. And that quote "...up to the present unknown..." is ambiguous. There is no reference to any book in that quote.
Your own quote is interesting. Let's examine it: "The fact that somebody played cards and gambled is not a particularly strong identifier for Erdnase." And yet you imply that since Gallaway owned books on gambling, he was certainly interested in that activity, and might have even gambled himself. You consider the gambling books on Gallaway's shelf compelling circumstantial evidence that points to his authorship of The Expert. That's your spiel. And yet according to you, playing cards and gambling is not a particularly strong identifier of Erdnase. That would mean the gambling books on Gallaway's shelf don't really strongly identify him as Erdnase. Yet you present it as compelling circumstantial evidence that he was Erdnase. You're contradicting yourself. I have caught you in your own contradiction. Your Gallaway narrative is ridiculous, like an emperor parading around the village with no clothes on. You have managed to swindle a lot of people, including those German filmmakers, that Gallaway is a compelling candidate for the identity of Erdnase, when in truth, it's only just grifting from you. |
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Chris Inner circle lybrary.com 1178 Posts
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On Sep 11, 2022, Leo H wrote: That is because you don't seem to know the book well and thus do not understand the context of the quotes. Erdnase also mentions Hoyle by title. This is not a magic book at all. It is a book on games and gambling. Quote:
On Sep 11, 2022, Leo H wrote: You completely misunderstand my argument. First, the fact that Gallaway had magic and gambling books in his library is only one of many reasons why I am convinced he is Erdnase. The sum of all of these reasons makes up a convincing case. If it would only be his ownership of magic and gambling books then I would not at all be convinced of him being Erdnase. It is just one piece of the puzzle. But coming back to the gambling argument. I will try to explain my point again. Erdnase is not merely an average card player who buys some decks to play cards. He is an intellectual, somebody who has read a lot of books on card play and sleight of hand. One could say he is a real student of card play, not merely a player, he reads, he experiments, and he studies. Most people just play and have a good time. The fact that Erdnase references books and tells us that in all the books that have been published there is not one that offers what he is offering in his book, demonstrates that he is a heavy reader. In fact, he himself thinks he has read all the relevant literature. Thus we are not looking for merely somebody who is known to play cards or gamble. We are looking for an intellectual card player, somebody who reads books on magic and gambling, somebody who writes well, etc. Gallaway is exactly that. His extensive library is mentioned in his bio. We know for a fact that he had magic and gambling books in it because such books with his bookplate were found in the 1950s. That is why simply knowing that Sanders bought decks to play cards is not as telling as Gallaway with his library of magic and gambling books. But that fact alone does not make Gallaway Erdnase. It is merely one point that matches what one expects Erdnase would be like.
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Leo H Inner circle 1334 Posts
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[quote]On Sep 11, 2022, Chris wrote: You completely misunderstand my argument. First, the fact that Gallaway had magic and gambling books in his library is only one of many reasons why I am convinced he is Erdnase. The sum of all of these reasons makes up a convincing case. If it would only be his ownership of magic and gambling books then I would not at all be convinced of him being Erdnase. It is just one piece of the puzzle.[quote]
It is just one piece of the puzzle...of course. And that also applies to Sanders, the total sum of circumstantial evidence. The fact that Sanders purchased six decks of playing cards is just one piece of the puzzle. One of many pieces like the anagrams of his name he wrote down in his school notebooks. Sanders was indeed an intellectual who graduated from college with a degree in engineering, and was well read in classic literature, and versed in the arts, including magic. He wasn't a hayseed who liked to play cards. Quote:
Chris wrote: That is why simply knowing that Sanders bought decks to play cards is not as telling as Gallaway with his library of magic and gambling books. And by the same token owning books on gambling is not as telling as actually venturing out into the real world away from the library, and gambling in casinos. An activity that Sanders actually accomplished, as did Erdnase, while you have NOTHING WHATSOEVER on that matter from Gallaway. Your argument is as thin as tissue paper, and quotes without any context are worthless. |
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Chris Inner circle lybrary.com 1178 Posts
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On Sep 11, 2022, Leo H wrote: The fact that Sanders played around with anagrams does not in any way contribute to his case for Erdnase. We do not know if Erdnase anagrammed his real name to derive his pen name S.W. Erdnase. Thus Sanders' interest in anagrams provides no match with what we know Erdnase did. This is an error you and many others constantly make. Whatever arguments you offer for Sanders must match a fact we know about Erdnase. Since we do not know how he derived or chose his pen name, the entire anagram thing is pointless.
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Leo H Inner circle 1334 Posts
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On Sep 11, 2022, Chris wrote: The fact that Sanders played around with anagrams does not in any way contribute to his case for Erdnase. We do not know if Erdnase anagrammed his real name to derive his pen name S.W. Erdnase. Thus Sanders' interest in anagrams provides no match with what we know Erdnase did. This is an error you and many others constantly make. Whatever arguments you offer for Sanders must match a fact we know about Erdnase. Since we do not know how he derived or chose his pen name, the entire anagram thing is pointless. Poo poo-ing the anagram argument? Is it because it has no bearing on Gallaway, and out of your reach to use for your profit? You present yourself as a serious scholarly researcher, and yet you were the individual that submitted the unsubstantiated, and ridiculous idea that the name "Erdnase" was possibly a nickname for Gallaway used by his family members, and friends. You really veered off into Munchkinland on that one. Let's go back and examine what David Alexander thought about the anagram argument: His writing shows that Erdnase had a healthy ego and was proud of what he learned, developed, refined, and created. He enjoyed parading his intelligence before the reader...He attached the last name of his pseudonym to five different "systems," two sleights, and his full initials to one sleight in particular. Thirty percent of the material in Card Table Artifice has Erdnase's name applied to it...We believe that Erdnase did sign his name to his work, as his ego would certainly demand...What greater thrill than to have his real name on the book, only disguised; a further matter of satisfaction to have his name out in plain sight where all could see it, especially by streetwise gamblers, and yet remain invisible and undiscovered. The anagram argument is laid bare by Alexander. The author had a very healthy ego, and most likely concealed his real name behind an anagram instead of pulling any name out of thin air. And not the simple backwards E.S. Andrews that even a child could discern. Anyone who still isn't convinced of Alexander's argument has to agree that it's still a marvelous coincidence W.E. Sanders is a perfect anagram of S.W. Erdnase, and another marvelous coincidence that Sanders experimented with anagrams as a young man. But it's not a coincidence, as Alexander pointed out: At some point the idea of endless coincidences becomes unreasonable and the evidence, even though circumstantial, becomes overwhelming. |
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Chris Inner circle lybrary.com 1178 Posts
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On Sep 11, 2022, Leo H wrote: All of that is pure conjecture, a hypothesis, just as the reverse spelling idea is, just as my nickname theory is. None of these have to be how Erdnase came up with his pen name. Why should Erdnase use character juggling at all? It is much more likely he simply came up with the name Erdnase without any discernible mechanism. Take a look at the more than 600 pen names collected on Wikipedia. I think there is only one or two who derived their pen name through an anagram. 99% of authors who decide to use a pen name use very different ways to come up with their pen names. The a priori likelihood of Erdnase anagramming his real name is therefore extremely low. David Alexander's chain of arguments which led him to believe the author anagrammed his name is merely his opinion, an assumption. An assumption is not evidence. It contributes nothing to the case of Sanders.
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Posted: Jun 12, 2018 05:04 pm 
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