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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
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On Jan 15, 2017, MarcoLostSomething wrote: Chicken!!! |
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MarcoLostSomething Regular user 144 Posts |
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On Jan 15, 2017, Cagliostro wrote: It's just I've heard somewhere that Arnold can unleash locust swarms towards anyone who names grips after him. Or sand storms... now I can't recall which plague was it... AMcD's Grip it is, then! Happy Birthday! @tommy: I'm talking about any types of games, basically just how people hold the deck. What I see the most is 4 fingers on the right of the deck, and sometimes with the fourth finger kinda straddling from the inner edge, but all the other fingers on the right. How does it work in your games? |
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AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts |
The AMcD's Grip... You want to kill me guys, lol.
Thanks for your wishes! |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
It works like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0XiCNHgd2w
How does Doyle Brunson or any these players grip the cards?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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ASW Inner circle 1879 Posts |
I hope you guys resolve the grip issue. Let me know if you do.
Whenever I find myself gripping anything too tightly I just ask myself "How would Guy Hollingworth hold this?"
A magician on the Genii Forum "I would respect VIPs if they respect history." Hideo Kato |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Show me a poker player that is gripping the cards and I will show you a poker player that has gone broke and dealing for tips. Moreover, if he doesn’t grip the cards like I tell him to then I will throw him out the window and that is the end of that never ending issue.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Thomas Gilroy New user Ireland 70 Posts |
I doubt anything I have to say is as worthwhile as anything the regulars have contributed.
I used to play a lot of poker when I was in college. At first, just friendly games with close friends in a single-table tournament format. Later I started playing with several different groups for larger buy-ins (at most 50 euro, so still relatively small stakes), in player dealt tournaments and some cash games in card rooms in my home town. I've not played so much in the last few years. I first learned to shuffle and deal properly by watching Jeremy Neuman's videos. His video on shuffling can be found here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFs3XJSA6vI For those who aren't interested to watch, Jeremy advocates a closed grip with the palms flat over the two halves and the fingers together. He also advocates a very open squaring action. I think his technique is very elegant and professional looking, and since first watching his videos this has been my preferred way to shuffle cards. There is very little chance of a card being exposed using this technique, and the open square up allows the other players to see that the shuffle was fair. The only downside is that this shuffle can be very difficult to perform on a hard surface, like a glass topped table. Later, I learned the procedures and techniques taught in the TruePokerDealer videos. His video on shuffling can be found here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeEMaZqMRp0 TruePokerDealer advocates a different technique, where the deck halves are held in a straddle grip above the surface of the table after the split, then flattening to a position with the index, middle and ring fingers spread apart on top of the halves and the pinky along the outside short edges. I think this technique is very efficient, as the hands form a "cage" around the deck, with the entire shuffling process happening inside the cage. While the cage ensures that a card will not be exposed during the shuffle, I can see now that the cage also provides a lot of cover for false shuffles. I also find that this method is also much easier to perform over a hard surface. I don't like the aesthetics as much as Jeremy's method, and I can see how it could feel very cramped for dealers with very large hands. As for the so called "EF2" grip, the only benefit I can see is that if you are pushing the two halves together with the curled ring fingers, the hands change shape very little over the course of the shuffle. I suppose it looks nice too. I have the Gambling Protection Series DVDs, and Steve doesn't consistently use any particular technique while riffle shuffling, even during the same sequence. Sometimes it's EF2 with the index finger curled on top, sometimes it's EF2 with the index finger extended, sometimes it's closed, sometimes it's open and other times his left and right hands aren't mirroring each other. I've wondered before if these variations were deliberate or unconscious. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Perhaps most of the amateur poker games today are little comps rather than cash games. Many of casino players only play in small comps rather than cash games today.
If there are say eight poker tables in a casino full of players in the comp, then there are normally only two or three cash games going on after the comp has finished.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Thomas Gilroy New user Ireland 70 Posts |
Hi tommy. That has certainly been my experience. The vast majority of the games I've played have been single table mini tournaments. Those games were usually either winner-take-all or some division between first and second place. I don't remember the exact breakdown of prize money for any of the multi-table tournaments I played in. Obviously the organisers would take some fraction of each buy-in as a cover charge.
The standards for game procedure varied. Some of the groups I played with in home games started with paper cards and dice chips, mostly overhand shuffles and no cut cards. As those groups became more experienced, most began using plastic cards, tabled riffle shuffles and cut cards. Other groups were already using plastics, tabled shuffles and cut cards when I joined. I wanted to learn how to shuffle and deal correctly because of these groups. I felt a bit embarrassed when I attempted my first tabled riffle shuffle during a game, which I made a complete mess of. The group insisted that another player shuffle and deal on my turns after that. So I bought some decks of plastic cards and learned correct mechanics and procedures for shuffling and dealing. Soon I was very comfortable with shuffling and dealing. I liked practicing the procedures, I found it cathartic. In some groups the table would elect me the permanent dealer, purely because I could shuffle and deal with correct procedures faster than the rest of the group and with less mistakes (exposed cards, etc). That was actually surprisingly frequent, even when it was my first time playing with the group, when the group didn't know me outside of the games, when I brought the cards we were using, etc. I don't know if it's my demeanor or them perceiving that my shuffling and dealing was fair that made the groups trust me as a permanent dealer. Maybe the only kind of cheating they could imagine was bottom dealing, and felt that they were completely safe because of the cut cards. I would insist that some other player would perform the final one-handed cut to the cut card and complete the cut on the table before I dealt. I'm sure Arnold and Cagliostro would have trouble believing their luck in those situations, but I had neither the knowledge, the skill, the want or the need to take advantage of those games. I won much more than I lost. I'm a decent amateur player, I've read Sklansky, etc. I can understand the books and have been able to put those strategies into practice. To my knowledge, I've never been suspected of anything improper, though that suspicion would have been completely unwarranted. No comments about my shuffling and dealing speed making players uncomfortable, no questions about the cards I brought to games (beyond asking where I bought them). I did get asked many times about how I learned to shuffle and deal, and sometimes why I learned to do it. I would answer truthfully. There was only one game I was not invited back to, but I found out that it was because the group found me very competitive, and told me it sucked the fun out of their game. Honestly, I have a hard time believing that the "EF2" grip would have drawn any suspicion whatsoever to me. |
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
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On Feb 22, 2017, Thomas Gilroy wrote: Actually, the two grips and methods of shuffling, by placing that fingers flat on the tabled halves prior to the riffling action are the methods taught in dealer's schools and considered the correct technique. The reason is that placing the fingers flat on the halves tends to reduce the exposure of the cards or indices of the cards when riffling the halves together from those players at the sides of the dealer. I believe the second method was a later development and is somewhat more helpful for some when shuffling two decks together as in double deck blackjack. My personal preference is the first method although in private games, especially heads-up games, I often just use the open grip because it is faster and don't place my fingers flat on the tabled halves in that instance. I also agree that the first method is more aesthetically pleasing than the second. I always thought the second method was somewhat "clumsy" by comparison. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts |
Nice posts guys. Thanks.
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ASW Inner circle 1879 Posts |
I use both a casino style shuffle and the tighter index finger handling. The reason for the former is it's ideal for riffle stacking. The reason for the latter is that it's superb for a Miller-style strip out shuffle when doing card tricks and demos. It aids control and allows for a brief finer than a **** hair. It's also great for brief and strip work.
I've played cards for money in the middle east, hung around with a few scufflers in the US, and of course done plenty of magic shows including in casinos with staff present. No one has ever had an issue with whatever handling I use when shuffling. The only scufflers who gave me a hard time were dear old Tony Giorgio (just because and I enjoyed every minute) and a Chicago guy who didn't like how I spread cards, a move I didn't do but had a hack at because he wanted to see me try it. But the way I riffle shuffle? Never. Of course, I'm sure Tommy would kick me out of his club but I can't guarantee it wouldn't be due to confirmation bias.
Whenever I find myself gripping anything too tightly I just ask myself "How would Guy Hollingworth hold this?"
A magician on the Genii Forum "I would respect VIPs if they respect history." Hideo Kato |
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AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts |
Tony a scuffler? Are you sure Andrew? Hahaha.
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ASW Inner circle 1879 Posts |
I interviewed one of his partners and have the audio right here. Yes, I'm sure.
"Ha. Ha."
Whenever I find myself gripping anything too tightly I just ask myself "How would Guy Hollingworth hold this?"
A magician on the Genii Forum "I would respect VIPs if they respect history." Hideo Kato |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
I wouldn’t let him in the club.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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cbharrelson Regular user 167 Posts |
Jason we just had a discussion on the zarrow which has bearing on the shuffle grip I have noticed that Steve has an interesting method. One the way he lays in the cards and two his unweaving because of the way he lays in the cards is very minimal and lastly he covers the insertion with his fingers . It is interesting because he normally uses an open style shuffle and the zarrow ala Gary plants is better with a closed shuffle. Will you comment
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JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1728 Posts |
Cbharrelson,
Are you talking to me? I hadn't commented on this thread in a while so I wasn't sure. If you are, will I comment on what? I'm confused. Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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cbharrelson Regular user 167 Posts |
Jason on another thread we were discussing the zarrow. Steve has an excellent method of laying the cards in when he riffles. It allows for a very small v and when you unweaving the cards it is barely noticeable. I think out of all people who do the zarrow he has a very natural shuffle and he covers the shuffle in a very interesting way. These fellows are discussing grips and erdnase taught two grips one with two fingers curled, one with fingers flat. I think he used the curled finger grip in the video when he did the zarrow. I am working to perfect my zarrow. I am using different little moves from the following to developed a very natural shuffle. Gary plants Steve Reynolds Steve forte bill Malone Richard turner Darwin Ortiz. You have one of the most natural push through so have seen. As for the two curled finger grip this is straight out of erdnase. I use the flat grip and a covered shuffle normally but like Steve I occasionally ust the curled fingers it is a beautiful way to shuffle and no one does it better than Steve.i wanted to know if you had seen Steve do his zarrow in person and your thoughts on his zarrow.
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JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1728 Posts |
CB,
Just to be clear, are you asking if I've seen Steve Reynolds do his Zarrow in person? Or are you asking if I've seen Steve Forte do his Zarrow in person. I think you're talking about Reynolds, but since Forte was the subject of the "shuffling grips" debate, I can't be sure. If you're asking about Reynolds, I was in the room when we filmed his DVD - so yes, I've seen it done live. He does an excellent Zarrow. The move is a flawed move so it often has tells and issues, but I've seen Reynolds (and 1 or 2 others) hit Zarrows before that I wouldn't want to bet money were not real shuffles. They're not all that invisible, but every now and then, I'd say 1 our of 10 Reynolds hits one that good. Laypeople have zero chance against his Zarrow and neither do 99.9% of all card players. You would've had to have been around the block a lot to pick it off when he's in stroke. And even then you won't want to bet against the really, really good ones. Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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