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slowkneenuh Regular user After 5,278+ posts, only credited with 133 Posts |
"Philosophy proper deals with matters of interest to the general educated public, and loses much of its value if only a few professionals can understand what is said." (Bertrand Russell, 1948)
John
"A poor workman always blames his tools" |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 26, 2016, NYCTwister wrote: First clause of first proposition seems to fail when tested - verification - see Schrodinger's cat discussion ( I'm not taking sides - see Einstein's objection ) The second clause of the first proposition presumes criteria for testing and verifying facts - see first clause test then add missing presuppositions about someone like yourself who you tend to agree agree with who thinks like you but magically has all the relevant data to agree with the proposition set forth and also wishes to provide that verification as agreement... vanity much? Third clause (hidden in presupposition about all men or any man or equivalent)- ask your chicken what it thinks about your proposal... or your cat While we're frying a philosophy... try the veal?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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NYCTwister Loyal user 267 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 26, 2016, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Jonathan, jump off a skyscraper - the fall, and what's left of you when you go splat, will constitute objective absolutes. Not true? Then jump, and let me know what happens. If you can. Two more things - 1.Speak English. 2.I don't have a chicken, or a cat, and wouldn't ask them anything if I did. That would just be weird.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Hmmmm item one - you may wish to imagine such things, or ask others to do so - but your tree falls in an airless forest - and so makes no sound... for almost any definition of tree you place in almost any location you designate in the model of the universe our society has posited as best guess to date (2016).
1. Plain text - a source of intriguing paths when used as "ping" to build a traceroute. And why do you believe that? 2. for pity's sake - how might anyone else find out if that were not the case? (that's a general formula for verification) folks still falling for that old gag about dressing vanity up in feathers and saying it [phonetic]flys[/phonetic]
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Here's a quick refresher on the cat situation:
A fable out of Schrodinger's Cat box. As imagined...upon opening...out jumps a cat. The cat hisses then rushes away opining upon the certain loss of half its lives. I wrote to paraphrase other possibilities ala Kryten in lie mode but checked the Wikipedia and found Einstein had already written caution on the matter, with a nod to Laue. Whose Wikipedia page offered its own fable about two Nobel prize medals kept safe through the magic of chemistry. See Camille, first scene, with cat. background: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger's_cat Einstein himself on the cat status: You are the only contemporary physicist, besides Laue, who sees that one cannot get around the assumption of reality, if only one is honest. Most of them simply do not see what sort of risky game they are playing... The script for that Red Dwarf episode - first scene with cat http://www.cervenytrpaslik.cz/scenare/EN-19-4_Camille.htm And the scene itself -playing with reality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB-NnVpvQ78 It's a Banana - Red Dwarf - BBC
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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NYCTwister Loyal user 267 Posts |
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On Dec 27, 2016, Jonathan Townsend wrote: I have no idea what any of that means, that's why I asked you to speak English.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Please - at least demonstrate you understood about the cat so far as its hissing... please?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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NYCTwister Loyal user 267 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 27, 2016, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Whose cat? Mine...or Schrodinger's
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 27, 2016, NYCTwister wrote: That looks like you got the connective about cats in the earlier post. Did you get as far as "what it means to someone else - or something else ... for example a cat?" or follow that well established story about a thought experiment so far as imagining the cat leaving the lab after the experiment? The thought experiment cat is as real as the tree in the forest - a cognitive construct offering a testable outcome for a well designed experiment... to test whether the quantum mechanics math thing directly corresponds to an experiential/meaningful entity. Einstein already argued and lost as regards "real - external - objective" narrative. Many worlds? (countable?) Multiverse?... where's the distance formula...sorry ) Ayn Rand offered a good counterpoint to the intellectual fad/fascination with communism way back when. Her product, objectivism, was not as well marketed or merchandised as other reaction/formations of that time. And now a direct challenge to objectivism... a magician waves his wand and our govt now runs by objectivism... and then you get a call from a friend saying his parent's SS benefits have been cut and their disabled child benefits are gone... how do you feel?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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NYCTwister Loyal user 267 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 27, 2016, Jonathan Townsend wrote: I told you I didn't understand any of it. Your writing style is too cryptic, so I made an attempt at a witty remark My bad. Quote:
The thought experiment cat is as real as the tree in the forest - a cognitive construct offering a testable outcome for a well designed experiment... to test whether the quantum mechanics math thing directly corresponds to an experiential/meaningful entity. Einstein already argued and lost as regards "real - external - objective" narrative. Many worlds? (countable?) Multiverse?... where's the distance formula...sorry ) How about the rest of us deal with this earth, and the things and words on it; and we'll leave the multiverse, the negative zone, Asgard and the rest to you. Quote:
Ayn Rand offered a good counterpoint She made a lot of good points, about a lot of things. Quote:
And now a direct challenge to objectivism... a magician waves his wand and our govt now runs by objectivism... and then you get a call from a friend saying his parent's SS benefits have been cut and their disabled child benefits are gone... how do you feel? It wouldn't happen, and, if you understood, you wouldn't ask the question. Previous agreements and contracts would be honored as they were legally binding and entered into honorably.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
1. Sorry Bill and Jeff. I was trying to be witty.
2. I think landmark hit the nail on the head. I'll return to this in a moment. 3. My first inclination, like Bill and Jeff, was to go after the seemingly innocent first premises. The curse of academic training, I think. What are we to make of the line "my philosophy, objectivism..."? Of course, it's Ayn Rand's infamous position. And it still is highly seductive today. But I do wonder what makes NYCT think of it as his own? Curious. Now, back to landmark's comment. Rather than look at the (putative) deductive structure of the position, landmark went straight for the obvious point: objectivism is a moral and political position. Rand didn't deduce it from first principles; she began with her view of politics and then gave it a plausible-sounding alibi. The real point of the position NYCT outlined is Quote:
Man, every man, is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest, and of his own happiness, is the highest moral purpose of his life. And this is where the real action is. There is no plausible way to get from Quote: to self-interest, capitalism and libertarian politics without smuggling in a boatload of ethical premises. Rand--who should have known better--pretends that her values are a logical consequence of her metaphysical assumptions. She's simply wrong on that account.
Reality exists as an objective absolute; facts are facts, independent of mans feelings, wishes, hopes or fears. I'll stop here. Not because I have nothing to say, but because any responses (if there are any) would be more fruitfully applied to a small number of arguments than to a larger number.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
John thank you.
Often in his posts he makes those jumps yoy soak of in logic and they are confusing. It leads to actions being different than claimed "philosophy". Without a proper understanding of what brings you to conclusions it can lead to odd decisions. (Not you John. You in general I mean. I use your name because you made the point is all.)
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On Dec 27, 2016, Magnus Eisengrim wrote: I see no need for you to apologize. Quote:
On Dec 27, 2016, Magnus Eisengrim wrote: I, for one, thought that you succeeded. Successfully. |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On Dec 27, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote: I, for one, despise jumps yoy soak of in logic. Quote:
On Dec 27, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote: Irony, thy name is Danny. |
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Salguod Nairb Room 101 0 Posts |
Tsk...after the fire and smoke we always see the Hare's splitting. How not very magical, still...
We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness...
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
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On Dec 27, 2016, S2000magician wrote: Tears of joy!
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Yea it is great to laugh going into a nwr yder. (Not as funny intentionally.)
Is irony even possible intentionally? The REALLY ironic part is my computer does not have auto correct or auto spellchecker and when I post there my brain does a better job! Who ever would imagine my brain doing a better job at ANYTHING?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On Dec 27, 2016, Salguod Nairb wrote: Hares. No apostrophe. |
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Salguod Nairb Room 101 0 Posts |
It was being... ironicall.
We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness...
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On Dec 27, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote: You're being way too hard on yourself, Danny. I'm sure that I could rattle off dozens of things that your brain can do better than other things can. As a simple example, I'm sure that it would make a much better doorstop than an equivalent mass of eiderdown would. |
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